Easy Chair Series

Time

Professor: Dr. R.J. Rushdoony

Subject: Conversations, Panels and Sermons

Lesson: 77-91

Genre:

Track:

Dictation Name: EC385

Year: 1986

This is R. J. Rushdoony, Easy Chair number 385, May the seventh, 1997.

This evening Douglas Murray is not with us because he is ill. We do miss him. He is a very, very stimulating addition to our circle. Andrew Sandlin, Mark Rushdoony and I will discuss questions this evening beginning with one from pastor Aubed Need. And this is an interesting one. I will not go into it in detail except to say that it is about time and the swiftness of time.

Now to discuss the discussion the subject of time is a rather difficult one, because it is a difficult subject. It can be approached in a number of ways philosophically, scientifically and also religiously. One of the problems with regard to time is that there is a tremendous disagreement in our time, one that began when I was quite young. It is between the traditional long standing view of time that held that a second is a second anywhere in the universe, that an hour is an hour whether here or on Mars or anywhere else. As against that we have the view of Albert Einstein on the relativity of time. According to this view, which a Christian scientist, Humphries, has developed, there are marked variations in the meaning of time and in the length of time.

For example, the length of a second is determined at the standard laboratories in Washington, DC, virtually at sea level. If, however, you go to Pike’s Peak, because of the higher altitude, a second will be much longer. Then if you were to go out to Mars, a second would be dramatically longer. And if you went out to the most remote stars that we know of, ostensibly trillions of light years away, what for us is a second might be there trillions of years. The relativity of time, in other words, in the thinking of Einstein makes a remarkable difference.

Of course, some absolutely reject this concept of time. I asked one scientist about it and he said, “If you believe in Einstein’s theory then Humphries is right. If you do not believe in it, as I do not, then Humphries is wrong.”

At any rate, this concept, of course, opens up a whole world of thinking, because it means that the vast number of light years that it takes the light of a star to reach here can be a very short time, because of the relativity of time so that it would be possible to hold that the world was and all things in the universe created a little more than 4000 years BC and yet what science tells us still be valid.

Well, I go into that by way of prelude because what pastor Need wanted to comment on was on the swiftness of time’s passage. I have mentioned some time ago that time speeds up during periods of God’s judgment upon society. At other times judgment seems to come more slowly. But in certain eras the judgment comes very quickly, very rapidly. There seems to be a speed up in time.

Of course, we can say that as we get older time speeds up for us. I can remember as a boy thinking it was going to be forever before Thanksgiving or Christmas rolled around. And then forever before summer vacation came around. I could hardly wait for school to end and those holidays and others and summer vacation to begin. Not that I didn’t enjoy school, but the week then seemed so long. It starts school on Monday and no matter how much you enjoyed it, the week seemed very long before Friday afternoon rolled around.

Well, as you get older, time seems to speed up. Before you know it, you are like myself, 81. And it doesn't seem that long ago that you were just 18. It is strange how rapidly time seems to move as we get older.

So time is an interesting question. I wrote, oh, it must have been in the mid to latter of 30s, probably even the earlier 20s, although I am not sure, the section on time which is in Systematic Theology.

[Sandlin] Systematic Theology. Rush, you wrote that in the back in the... in the 30s.

[Rushdoony] Yeah. No. In the 60s.

[Sandlin] Oh, in the 60s. Ok.

[Rushdoony] Yes. The first section on infallibility I wrote earlier.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] Well, I haven’t read it since them, I am ashamed to say, because I should have reread it before Systematic Theology came out, but I don’t know what I would say now, because the more you learn about the problem of time, the harder it becomes to say something about the idea of time.

Well, Andrew, would you like to contribute something here?

[Sandlin] Rush has basically said the older you get the wiser you get, the less you want... are able to say about time, so I had better be careful about what I say.

[Rushdoony] No, say it while you are young and can say it freely.

[Sandlin] Ok.

[Rushdoony] It is easier when you are young to say things.

[Sandlin] I was thinking about the relationship between time and history and how they are inextricably linked and how that we have largely inherited from the ancient Greek philosophers the desire to escape time. I was reading a book recently, Andrew Lout’s book. I think it was published by Oxford on the origins of the Christian mystical tradition in which he demonstrates the... the Greek philosopher’s lust for timelessness, which is a lust for escape from history and the body, of course, and so forth. For Plato and Plotinus and a lot of the early Church fathers it is the forms that are... that are absolute. But I think we need to recognize that... that time as a particular phenomenon is not absolute. Only God is absolute. So I think in that sense Einstein is correct, although he certainly was not arguing from Christian premises at all.

There really is an aversion to ... to... to time in history, in politics and in the Church wanting to reinvent orthodoxy every new generation, you know. And, of course, political liberals are notorious for this. Thomas Jefferson said... oh, how did he phrase it, Rush? The... the... the earth is for the living, you know, let us forgive... forget about the past. And then, thank God, we had men like Chesterton, who, despite some problems, nonetheless recognized that he wanted to stand with what he called the democracy of the dead. I think one thing that is remarkably shaped... Rush’s perception is his deep knowledge of history. We tend not to... to make mistakes as frequently if we know history. But I see especially in the modern church the fact that new heresies arise. I was thinking of one recently that denies the physical resurrection of Christ and various other things, just a revival of ancient heresies.

So we need to be aware of our own time conditioned being, that we are creatures within time. Only God is timeless. And the lust for timelessness is a lust to... a lust to play God. Hitler and many others historically have wanted a... a timeless Utopia on earth. And they also hate change. This is another point that Rush had made very well, especially, I think, it as in volume two of the Institutes. I think you had a, what, three or four chapters maybe. I can’t remember. I have read it years ago, Rush, but chapters on change and the necessity of change. Some people, of course, are just opposed to change in... on... on principle. Of course liberals worship the only unchanging truth for liberals is change and that is evil. But too many conservatives don’t want any kind of change and, of course, that is equally fallacious, because if we are going to be biblical people, we have to recognize there must be change to conform to what the Scripture says.

And, of course, as we... as we live within time we change. It is hard for us. I am sure Rush could speak much more powerfully than I could on this to see our children as they are young grow up and grow older and some times we almost want them to stay young because we enjoy them and capture the moment. But there is a heresy of... of timelessness within history that is very evil. We... a tender moment with our spouse or a ... or time with friends. How often I like to sort of put in a bottle the time I have spent with my parents or people like Rush or others and bottle it up for the future, but I can’t bottle it up for the future. It is impossible. So we need to live responsibly under God’s law for today thinking of tomorrow, but nonetheless aware of our own time bounded and time shaped situation. I think in doing so we can be faithful stewards of... of the kingdom.

There is... there is more I could say, but I notice Mark has written some things down, so..

[M. Rushdoony] Well, the concept of time has always fascinated me when Scripture says that there is no time in heaven and concepts that we use all the time like eternity. It is easy to define eternity and to assume it goes on forever... and ... but we often even fall into the category that eternity is a long time.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[M. Rushdoony] ...which... but it is not. There is no time there.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[M. Rushdoony] And be... time is created when God created the sun, the moon...

[Sandlin] That is right.

[M. Rushdoony] ... he said, “This is the first star for times and for seasons,” and... and he established the pattern of the week by his creation. He created... he created everything in seven seconds or seven days or seven weeks, however he chose. He chose to create the pattern of the week, which even non Christians use to this time. So he has imprinted on us this concept of... of time and time is... is a limiting factor.

And even, you know, people listening to this tape realize this was time before. This was taped before. There is a beginning, a middle and an end to the tape and in everything is bounded by the concept of time.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[M. Rushdoony] And as far as the speed of time, it is good sometimes not to be too comfortable about the way things happen. Sometimes we think, well, this is... this is how things have gone in the past 10 years or 50 years, 100 years. It is probably going to continue, which is what evolution is comfortable with. It is this uniformitarianism.

[Sandlin] Uniformitarianism. Yes, right.

[M. Rushdoony] Everything has always been the same. No major changes, no... no divine intervention. Everything has always been just the way it is. And sometimes to see something happen fast corrects our thinking, For instance, an automobile accident can change someone’s life in seconds.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[M. Rushdoony] An earthquake and the ground shakes for 15 or 30 seconds can create massive changes. One individual’s death in... in...

[Sandlin] That is right.

[M. Rushdoony] ...in business or politics can change the course of... of history humanly speaking.

Technological changes that can... can change the way we do things. If we even look at, you know, one or two inventions in the 20th century how it has changed our society like the radio and television has... have a major impact on us. And it is good now and then to stop and see that that ... how some thing or some event has changed the entire pattern of our lives and our history.

And when we think about the future and especially when we look at the world today and how unpleasant many things are in the world, we realize that the future is not ... can’t be interpreted in terms of what has happened in the last 50 or 100 years.

[Sandlin] Right.

[M. Rushdoony] God does what he will in his own time.

[Sandlin] That’s right.

[M. Rushdoony] And God can change men’s hearts. He can change nations. He can change things very rapidly.

I had someone once tell me 20 years ago saying how much he appreciated my... my father’s thinking. He was a reformed Baptist. But he said, “I can’t see his post millennialism, because I just can’t see that happening in the world today,” which is exactly the false {?}. That is not the point that we see it happening.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[M. Rushdoony] ... or we are going to make it happen.

[Sandlin] Absolutely.

[M. Rushdoony] ... it is a natural process.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[M. Rushdoony] It is something that is going to happen in God’s own time.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[M. Rushdoony] So very often we... we fall into the fallacy of interpreting time in terms of how we understand it and our limited conception of how things have to work.

[Sandlin] That is right.

I was thinking, Rush and... and Mark, a quick anecdote. It must have been about 10 years ago when we lived in Ohio we... my wife and I and the boys were very young. We were driving and we hit a... a icy spot on the road and our car started spinning and we could have been in a serious accident, but thank the Lord we just ended in a ditch. But it seemed like although that ... that whole episode took only like three or four seconds, it seemed in that... that my... that hours occurred in my mind. I am thinking, you know, I could die now. You know, I could see God. What about my family? That seems to be a common occurrence when people go through great crises that time seems to expand within their own mind. Is that a valid statement, would you say?

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Sandlin] ... with people that are drowning or that sort of thing?

[Rushdoony] Yes, you have a heightened consciousness and a heightened awareness of the moment. Most of the time the moment goes by and you are even though fully awake half asleep as far as your apprehension of it.

The interesting thing is that if when you go back to pagan cultures such as the Greeks and the Romans, they did not like time.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[Rushdoony] They did not have a faith in God. They had gods, but the gods were deified humans. In fact, in Greece they could tell you where Zeus was buried and other gods as well. And in Rome the emperors became deified. But their idea of a God, capital G O D, was really of an impersonal first cause. And they insisted on a first cause or god only because they did not want an eternal regress.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] And, therefore, they posited a god as the first cause and that was his only function.

Now, they, as a result, stressed eternity in an unusual way. They wanted to eternalize time.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] Hence, eternal Rome.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] And Athens was supposed to have something of eternity about it.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] So that they wanted to eternalize things in this world.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[Rushdoony] Things within time.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] Your first real philosophy of time came with Saint Augustine and with his Confessions. And there he puzzled over the meaning of time. He recognized that you could not internalize it. He recognized the importance of it in relationship to the human consciousness and the human experience of it. And the philosophy of time in the western world began with Augustine’s Confessions. But the persistence of the Greco Roman depreciation of time continued. And in one of the more famous hymns found in almost every hymnal:

Abide with me.

Fast falls the eventide.

[Sandlin] ...fast falls the eventide.

[Rushdoony] And the words in it a little later:

Change and decay in all around I see.

[Sandlin] ...and decay in all around I see.

[Rushdoony] Oh, thou that changest not, abide with me.

Well, there you have a hunger for time to be changeless.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] And that is not biblical.

[Sandlin] That is right. Good point.

[Rushdoony] That has often crept into the Christian fold.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] But this world is a world of change.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[Rushdoony] It is a world of decay. But here we must build God’s kingdom.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] And we are told in Isaiah 65 that when we begin to approximate the kingdom of God on earth the sinner who dies at 100 will be accounted to have died young. But an amazing longevity will enter into time to prepare the world for eternity when time shall be no more.

So the Bible has a great deal to say about time. It is moral necessity in a world of sin. You cannot have a changeless world.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[Rushdoony] ...which is a fallen world.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[Rushdoony] Where there is sin or as in Eden the possibility of sin.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[Rushdoony] Because then you enthrone sin eternally. But because there is change and decay, there is victory over sin. And death then shall die as Paul says.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] It shall be no more.

So the importance of change and decay of time is very real. And it is a moral necessity in a fallen world.

[Sandlin] That is right.

And godly progress requires change.

You know, Rush, I was thinking about something else. You were talking about the ancient Romans and I have been discussing with you recently Ethelbert Stauffer’s book Christ and the Caesars. Another point there that was fascinating. Virtually every new emperor that came along and almost everyone did it by nefarious... nefarious means, would proclaim the beginning of a new time.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Sandlin] Every time it was the time... of course, this happened, too, with the French Revolution, but time begins now with me.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Sandlin] Really remarkable.

[Rushdoony] They were sure that with their policies they would create a new world order.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] A new world order in which ultimately time would end.

One American scholar in the past decade wrote a book on, I believe, the end of history.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] And it was essentially a neo Marxist work, because Marx saw the end of time, so to speak, the end of history with the triumph of Marxism, of Communism. Then everything would be like a beehive, without change. And the imagery of the beehive and the ant hill has been very, very powerful in history, especially with Socialist groups with religious groups and cults that have a strongly centralized and socialist bent and are going to create the permanent world order.

[Sandlin] Yes.

I should point out, I think I mentioned in ... in the {?} that we did for Rush a comprehensive faith that as you can tell, while Rush is obviously not a liberal, he is also not what many people would call a conservative, because so many of today’s conservatives want this sort of timeless ancient order, the restoration of a timeless ancient order, an Amillennial approach. But there is no progress. There is no godly progress.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Sandlin] ...in that sort of situation.

[M. Rushdoony] Back to what you were saying about the resurrection. Time... resurrection is the end of time and... because it really reverses the whole progression of... of human time that is marred by... by sin. And it reverses the inevitability of death.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[M. Rushdoony] Now, which says that with the resurrection in the final judgment that represents that eternity is... is permanent. Ok, there is no tomorrow in heaven.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[M. Rushdoony] But there is no tomorrow in hell. There is no second chances.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[M. Rushdoony] The concept of universalism says that in ... in hell there is a tomorrow.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[multiple voices]

[M. Rushdoony] That man will have a second chance.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[M. Rushdoony] And...

[Sandlin] Interesting.

[M. Rushdoony] ... that the lack of time in eternity, I think, is important in that regard.

[Sandlin] And we have to take that as a matter of faith. I was thinking of one of my daughters. I was explaining to them as best I could the eternality of God and she says, “You know, I can understand how God could live forever, but I can’t understand how he could always be here. My mind ... he had to start somewhere.” And I said, “No.” And she says, “Well, daddy, I don’t understand that.” And I said, “None of us understands that, because... because it is... it is not a... it is not a creed of reason. We are not positing a reason. It is that we accept this on faith.” And I think that point that Mark made was excellent about opposing universalism along that line. And it is ... it is just a fact of the Word of God and we accept it on faith.

[M. Rushdoony] I... I think what you were saying about the Greeks and the Romans, too, it is interesting, because if you don’t believe in the sovereignty of God and providence, then time makes no sense whatsoever.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[M. Rushdoony] And chance controls everything. Because when you think of how many things throughout history... I mean, you read history books and... and this is why in a lot of schools history is seen as ... as the most boring and meaningless because it seems like an endless progression of meaningless events that had consequences, but they were determined by a battle and a lot of people, especially, I think, in the 60s with the anti war movement were indignant that history could be determined by violence. And when you look at history as being basically just a meaningless and the story of man alone it all... it does seem very meaningless and... and irrelevant, because so many things throughout history have... have ... have happened as a result of a seemingly inconsequential event.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[M. Rushdoony] Like the battle of Gettysburg. A lesser offer ... officer happened to... to see the need of taking the little round top and he arrived there just before the confederates as they were moving into position and if the confederates had taken that position the battle of Gettysburg might have been ... had a different outcome. And navies have been destroyed in storms. A general has died on the battlefield and ...

[Sandlin] The Spanish Armada...

[M. Rushdoony] Right.

[Sandlin] ...and the providences there. Yeah.

[M. Rushdoony] So many things seem meaningless and ... and until there is a providential view of time and history.

[Sandlin] Right.

[Rushdoony] Well, we have to recognize that time is an aspect of God’s creation.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] We entirely miss the meaning if we see it as some kind of ticking of the universe and a passage of events and simply that and no more. It is an aspect of God’s creation. And only when we see it as such can we see that it has an inescapable relationship to the fact that God created the world which was going to fall, which had to struggle to reestablish God’s kingdom and to prepare the way for the eternal kingdom of God. Time has its purpose in all of that sequence and progression.

[Sandlin] I have often thought of that hymn that Rush was referring to earlier, Abide with Me, and the change and decay in all around I see, in life and death abide with me and how wrong that is. And often this desire to escape history is also desire for a risk free universe.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Sandlin] ...which is very dangerous. If things never change, there is no risk. And I guess all of us like the comfort in one form or another, but there can’t be any progress without risk. And, of course, every day we get up we take a... a risk, because we are not eternal beings. Only God is an eternal being. We are perishable. But God is not perishable. And we have to recognize our limitedness. And this is another aspect of, as Rush has pointed out so powerfully over the years, the distinction between the... the creator and the creature. Man wants some aspect of God’s being. He wants to attain God’s timelessness. And that really is, according to Genesis chapter three the original sin. Man is trying to play God. And is often posited in such a spiritual light. Oh, I have read so many of these so-called deeper life books. You know what I am talking about. How man can... man can escape his creature hood and man can be as God, you know. And that really is dangerous. We need to accept our creature hood and... and to be as holy and as righteous as possible for a creature to be, but beyond that it really is idolatry.

[Rushdoony] Well, there is a lust today for something that will enable man to transcend time, which is an impossibility. We have a great many cults, new age cults...

[Sandlin] That is right.

[Rushdoony] ...that stress one way or another escaping from time or overcoming time. And very few of these cults are willing to face up to the fact of death and judgment, of reincarnation, for example.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] ...treats time essentially as simply a stage in which the soul works out its karma.

[Sandlin] Yeah.

[Rushdoony] And as a result, wherever you have this concept prevailing, time loses its meaning. History loses its meaning. Everything is reduced to the individual and his karma.

[Sandlin] Yeah.

[Rushdoony] But time tells us that the whole of history is purposive, that God has ordained certain things that need to be done and must be done.

Now one of the things that marks the anti time spirit is pettiness.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] A great deal of pettiness prevails in the Church today.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] Over trifles.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] Unbelievable trifles.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] With a world filled with sin and in need of Christ, there are church men who do nothing but wrangle over little technicalities.

Now pastor Need asked the question. And I am sure he gets a lot of them. “I get letters concerning the name of Jesus,” he writes. “Could you all on a tape defend the use of the name Jesus over the use of other names that might mean the same from the Old Testament?”

There is no need to defend the name of Jesus.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[Rushdoony] No need to defend anything that is in Scripture. We have today a great many idiots in the Church.

[Sandlin] Amen.

[Rushdoony] ...who will pick on some trifle and act as though they have some superior wisdom because they use that name or stress that trifle over other things. And supposedly we are not as versed in the Scriptures. Or they will take a word as some of the identity people do in the first 11 chapters of Genesis and insist on a usage of it that precludes from the human race everyone who is not of the white persuasion.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] Every kind of insanity imaginable. And I think the thing to do is to tell these people who object to the name Jesus or object to anything else or who erect trifles as of momentous import that they are guilty of misusing Scripture.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] That they are confusing trifles with essentials, that they are majoring in minors. And I think a sizable portion of Christendom today is engaged in majoring in minors because it is afraid of dealing with the majors.

[Sandlin] That is right.

Rush, do you mind if I give an ... a remarkable anecdote?

[Rushdoony] Sure.

[Sandlin] ...about that very thing.

[Rushdoony] Go right ahead.

[Sandlin] A number of years ago when I was a minister in Ohio there was a local sort of evangelical considered a ministerial association that asked me to attend one of their meetings. I had never gone. But one man prevailed on me to go one day and so I decided to go. It was the experience of a lifetime. They would get around and discuss topics, but the topic for the day was how to deal with members whose pets have died.

One younger minister said, “Oh, this is an important topic.” He said, “My two sons had two goldfish that died and it really hurt them. And... and we need to... we need to take time with our children and deal with this issue of the death of pets.” And then unbelievably an older minister that had just retired said, “Let us not laugh at this. I had a couple in my church, childless, but they had a dog for many years. And someone called me a few years ago and said, ‘Pastor, did you know so and so are grieving because their dog has passed away.’ Would you make a pastoral visit and comfort them in all their distress?’”

And I am sitting there, Rush, thinking, I have so much work to do, so many vital things to study, so many sermons to prepare, so many things to write and these irrelevant nincompoops are over here talking about pets and dealing with people whose pets have died. That is just the height of pettiness and irrelevance that I will remember until the day I die.

[Rushdoony] You missed on a very, very important opportunity, Andrew. You should have asked: Did I do wrong when I flushed my son’s dead goldfish down the toilet?

[Sandlin] Maybe it is someone reincarnated, you know.

[Rushdoony] I know what you mean. And these people become offended. You say they are majoring in minors.

[Sandlin] Rush, I think you are exactly right. It... their irrelevance is a studied irrelevance because it... they are not there by... they thereby can avoid dealing with the real issues in the Church.

[Rushdoony] Yes. I have been horrified over the years that people who come to me with a supposedly serious problem, it is about the meaning of a name in some obscure Old Testament passage. Could there be a hidden meaning in this name? Why is this name used here? And so on and so forth. And you look at those people and you say, “God knows, surely, and I somewhat, how much you need to know his Word better.” And you are wasting your time.

[Sandlin] Absolutely.

[Rushdoony] ...over this?

[Sandlin] Yes. And, you know what? There is often a degree of hypocrisy involved. Mark and I know of a... well, you do, too, Rush, of a particular fundamentalist minister whose name, of course, will go unmentioned about ... he was the particular book you were asking about recently, who would inveigh against any woman who would ever wear slacks or wear dresses that weren’t as long. Come to find out, right under his nose his son had been committing multiple adulteries and perversions. He never did anything about it. There is some question about his own moral standing. And so there is this loud inveighing of ... of Antinomians about all of their man made standards, you know, but when it comes to the reality of the faith, an actual violation of God’s written law, they are totally silent.

[Rushdoony] Yes. Well, there is also an eschatological aspect here. If time is what the Bible says it is, time will end when Christ comes again and when man has destroyed everything that is against Christ. All things are put under his feet.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[Rushdoony] Then Christ comes and the last enemy is destroyed. Oh, I don’t know how people read that passage and think they can believe in an any moment return.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[Rushdoony] All things are to be put under his feet first. And these people will do nothing towards that goal and will, instead, waste God’s given... God given time over trifles and over dead goldfish.

[Sandlin] Absolutely.

[M. Rushdoony] Time is a limiting factor, but it is also a responsibility, because the commandment says, “Six days shalt thou labor.”

[Sandlin] Labor. That’s right.

[M. Rushdoony] It is not just resting one day out of seven.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[M. Rushdoony] It is... it is... which enough people don't want to hold to, but it is six days shalt thou labor.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[M. Rushdoony] Man... man was made to work.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[M. Rushdoony] Adam was not made to have fun in the garden. He was made to work.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[M. Rushdoony] Before the fall there was work to be done.

[Rushdoony] Yes. God did not make trees with swings on them for Adam and Eve to enjoy themselves.

[Sandlin] That reminds me. I don’t know if Rush remembers this. The first time he came to our church in Ohio, it was a Sunday morning. The flight got in late. He got in and spoke from Genesis chapter two, I believe, on that very point, Rush. He pointed out that ... that even before sin entered, it was very hard for Adam. He didn’t have any clothes on. He was walking around probably stubbing his toes and knocking into things. It was very difficult.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Sandlin] But we have people today that ... who want ease more than anything else. And this is especially true in the Church.

[Rushdoony] Yes. Well, they simply don’t want the realities of the world. And our modern life, especially here in the United States where there is a high degree of comfort where human wants are largely met for people to forget the realities of the world in...

[Sandlin] That is right.

[Rushdoony] ...most continents. And as a result they have run into a few obstacles and they want to be raptured.

Now I am not ridiculing that idea. I am not, because I take it with a sense of horror. You have people whom you have seen year in and year out spoil their children.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[Rushdoony] ... until they are monsters.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] And then weep and wail. Why did this happen? Well, at least I will be raptured soon.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] It is frightening.

[Sandlin] Yes, it is.

[Rushdoony] I heard just this week of a young man, handsome, very capable and a beach bum. Does nothing to be a father in his family or to be a godly husband. And when he I asked... You have got a great many children. You are not doing anything to provide for them. What about their schooling? Don’t have to worry about it. Before they are college age we are all going to be raptured.

[Sandlin] Oh.

[Rushdoony] So that is not mature manhood, let alone Christianity. And yet it is so prevalent. Churches are full of this sort of thing. And they will not deal with them.

I heard today of a pastor, a fine man, the kind you would be happy to know socially. You know, he knows his Bible well. And yet he can’t deal with the most elementary situation with the most important man in his congregation. Somehow he is praying that the Lord will solve the matter. But God doesn't hear prayers like that.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[Rushdoony] ...because he requires us to solve those matters.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] The high degree of avoidance of issues today is frightening.

[Sandlin] And, Rush, especially when contrasted with our brethren elsewhere. Do you remember years ago, Rush, I read? I think it was one of your editorials on God is no buttercup.

[Rushdoony] Yeah.

[Sandlin] A very powerful statement.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Sandlin] I mean, today our brothers and sisters in the Sudan are suffering indescribable tortures and persecutions as well as ... as, you know, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and China and Cuba and we could go on and on and on. But then when we compare that to ... to the ease with which we take things and, of course, God has put us in a situation where there is ease, because of progress and so forth. And so I am not suggesting we get rid of our ease. I... at the right time. I am suggesting that we recognize what is going on elsewhere and be faithful to God and to his Word. But that is just completely lost, completely lost.

[Rushdoony] I was deeply moved today. One of the calls I received was from John Nelson the sculptor in Alaska.

[Sandlin] Alaska, yes.

[Rushdoony] And he sent his regards to both of you. But the last time we had talked I had told him to be in prayer for the Christians in the Sudan and he told me today that he had been in very faithful prayer for them since our last telephone conversation. Well, that means not only that John is a mature Christian, which he is, but he also has a sense of the times and that if Christians here do not pray for the suffering Christians in the Sudan, God is going to judge us.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] I don’t know how anyone who is not afraid of God can avoid praying for the Christians in the Sudan. The women folk are sold into...

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] ...slavery, the children into slavery and the men crucified.

[Sandlin] Absolutely. And, of course, the Muslims... and we could go on and on, but the Muslims come in the villages poverty stricken villages, because of... poverty because of government policies. And have plenty of food and they say, “If you are wiling to renounce Christianity, we will be happy to give you food. If you are not willing, then you are going to starve.”

[Rushdoony] And a lot of that is food from this country and from the UN.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[Rushdoony] ...who both wink at the monstrous evil.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] ...that characterized Islamic peoples in the Sudan.

[Sandlin] And do you know what is especially galling, Rush, I think I mentioned this to you a couple of weeks ago or maybe a couple of months ago. One of the major weekly news magazines I... I get just one of them had a little box like on, oh, about page 17, 18, something like that. It says, little information boxes and it says, “Did you know that Christians are being persecuted for their faith?” And it talks about a little... there was a little statement in the Sudan. You... maybe one or two things you mentioned. And then in China, in Cuba, as though this is some new revelation. And just a tiny little box.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Sandlin] And, of course, as you have pointed out, it is very interesting that they would say anything about the Sudan. It wasn’t until Peter Hammond started talking about this that these things...

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Sandlin] Came up in the first place. But just ... if that would have happened in... in other situations or... or if homosexuals or... we could go on and on... had been attacked, or that sort of thing. It would have been front page news, of course.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

Well, it isn’t front page news and nothing is being done about it, because Christians don’t care.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[Rushdoony] They are just waiting to be raptured or they are waiting for God to answer their prayers and give them what they want so they can go on enjoying life.

[Sandlin] That is right.

And that, again, is... is desire for timelessness within history. Not to be bothered with the wear and tear of... of history and what is going on elsewhere. And that is one reason that Chalcedon has been committed to ... to pointing out these things month after month in the Chalcedon Report. And, frankly, very few other people are doing it.

[Rushdoony] What most people should be praying for, if they were honest: Dear Lord, put us in a cocoon until the ... our time to go.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[Rushdoony] Well, we have got into some of the byways in our discussion of time, but they are essentially related because time means relevance and we have to be as creatures of time relevant to our day and to the burdens and problems of our world.

[Sandlin] And, Rush, I want to put in a ... I don’t usually do this, but put in a plug for Chalcedon. If there is anything that even before I came here has always impressed me about Chalcedon is the utter relevance, the application of the faith, historic Christian orthodox, of course, biblical faith in all areas of life. There is a... there really is a balance here that by God’s grace that you have had, Rush, of having a writing and scholarship that is very relevant. There, of course, is a lot of scholarship out there that is just ivory tower, almost Gnostic, you know, Rush.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Sandlin] ...arcane scholarship. And on the other hand there are these mindless activists that just run out and do all sorts of crazy things. And I don't want to be more specific than that, but I... I see here a remarkable biblical balance of very powerful persuasive, biblical scholarship. But it is very relevant and that is what we have got to continue to do and by God’s grace we will continue to do. That is... that is... that is... that is the crying need of the hour is... is relevant biblical faith.

[Rushdoony] Well, I think it has to begin with a belief, as Hebrews says that God is and that he is a rewarder of them that seek him diligently. I am afraid that a great many people in the Church do not really believe in God.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[Rushdoony] One of the horrifying episodes of late has been this new version...

[Sandlin] Oh, yes...

[Rushdoony] ... of the New I V.

[Sandlin] Oh.

[Rushdoony] This is the Bible that most of our so-called evangelicals and our so-called reformed people use.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[Rushdoony] It has never been that good a Bible.

[Sandlin] No.

[Rushdoony] But even more so now the newest NIV will drop all gender references. God will no longer be he. Everything will be depersonalized. And... and that is saying that God isn’t real, that his Word is not the Word of...

[Sandlin] That is right.

[Rushdoony] ... of the infinite and omnipotent being who is going to judge us. We can tamper with his Word. We can take out the references to male and female, to he and she and make everybody an it.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[Rushdoony] And then next maybe we can eliminate all reference to homosexuality.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[Rushdoony] ...is evil and then maybe adultery.

[Sandlin] Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Rushdoony] Now, if the Bible is going to conform to man’s Word, then it is man’s Word and you might as well call it that.

[Sandlin] That is right.

[Rushdoony] But if it is God’s Word, God is going to judge those who tamper with his Word.

[Sandlin] Absolutely.

[Rushdoony] And we have one of the biggest churches in the country which claims to be evangelical behind this falsification of the Bible. And a leading pastor saying in another 25 years anyone who still wants the King James Version will be regarded with amusement.

[Sandlin] Yes. Oh, Rush, the ... and the rationale for this whole situation, that the... that the heads of the group of these liberals masquerading as conservatives and what is so terribly galling about this is they have been pretending over the years that, oh, this is a very conservative translation. I mean, I almost have more respect for the just out and out...

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Sandlin] ... liberal translations, because at least they are not being pretentious about it. But the rationale for all of this is, well, language changes, you know, and we want everything in the language of the people, which is a total lie. They are just caving in to Feminism, caving into evil. And that church that you mentioned, Rush, they... there was a particular member there that ... there was a man that was trying to become a member of the church and, of course, that church has women ... women ministers and he said, “You know, I can’t be party to this.” And they said, “Well, you know, that is one of the requirements of membership in this church, that you will sign that you are willing to be taught the Word of God by ... by women, by women ministers.” And, of course, he refused to do that. But it is no wonder that that particular church is... is... is off into apostasy. This is, of course, the main seeker sensitive church growth church in the nation whose name I won’t mention. But it is evil.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Sandlin] And it is a... and the Bible is that... well, I won’t even call it a Bible. It is not a Bible, this new thing. It is thoroughly corrupt.

[M. Rushdoony] Have you ever been to a Bible study in a church that uses numerous translations?

[Sandlin] Oh what...

[M. Rushdoony] Whatever... whatever suits you best, whatever ...

[Sandlin] It is chaotic.

[M. Rushdoony] ...helps you best. And... I... I went to one in... in the Bible study the... the person who was leading it would read the Scripture passage out of their Bible and say, “Now does anybody else have a different version?”

And you would have four or five different versions.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[M. Rushdoony] ...and what was interesting, periodically somebody would say, “Well, that is not what my Bible says.”

[Sandlin] Yes, exactly.

[M. Rushdoony] Total confusion. It was just dwell...

[Sandlin] Designer Bibles.

[M. Rushdoony] ...whatever your Bible says.

[Sandlin] Yes.

[M. Rushdoony] ...however you want to, you know, view it. There are different opinions here. And there is no absolute standards.

[Sandlin] It is another heresy of the... the ... an example of the heresy of democracy in the Church.

[Rushdoony] Well, these churches if you visit there and they call on you and ask you if you are interested in membership and you say, “What does your church believe?” Their response is: What do you want us to believe?

[Sandlin] Exactly.

[Rushdoony] Now, no I... idea there of the Word once and for all time delivered to the saints.

[Sandlin] Absolutely. Yes and... and I ... I won’t be afraid to mention the name of the particular publisher. Zondervan has just on this issue and it has been... it is just tragic, just totally tragic. And... and this demonstrates the evil and the apostasy in the Church, because when you tamper with the living, inspired Word of God it is a very ... God... God reserves his judgment for those who would tamper with his Word, his precious, inspired, infallible and preserved Word. We must speak up. And I commend, of course, those at Chalcedon and there are a number of others in the nation that are speaking up on this matter. It certainly is a matter that... that... that should be exposed.

[Rushdoony] Well, our time is about up. Thank you all for listening. And God bless you. Keep your questions coming. And as we are able, we will be happy to answer you.