From the Easy Chair

Teacher in Sweden

Professor: Dr. R.J. Rushdoony

Subject: Conversations, Panels and Sermons

Lesson: 214-214

Genre: Speech

Track:

Dictation Name: RR161Z48

Year: 1980s and 1990s

Dr. R. J. Rushdoony, RR161Z48, Teacher in Sweden, from the Easy Chair, excellent colloquies on various subjects.

[ Rushdoony ] This is R. J. Rushdoony, Easy Chair number 150, July 14, 1987.

Today we have with us our newest staff member, Gary Mose, who, for the past two years, partly with Chalcedon’s assistance has been teaching at a Swedish college. And we are going to talk with Gary and is very lovely wife Carlinda about their experience in Sweden and the nature of the society there. But before we do, Otto, July the 14th is an important date in history, one you know a great deal about. Would you like to comment on it?

[ Scott ] Yes, July 14th is Bastille Day and when the crowd broke in to the great massive prison they found eight pensioners because the crown had long ceased to use it as a prison and all France still celebrates it as a great victory over tyranny.

[ Rushdoony ] Well, some years ago Roland Huntford, a very, very perceptive journalist wrote a book on Sweden after spending a great many years there. the book was entitled The New Totalitarians. Unfortunately, the book is now out of print. The thesis of is book was that while the Soviet Union represented the old Totalitarianism, based on terror, the new Totalitarians in Sweden based theirs on education. They are very faithful and throughout disciples of John Dewey and his whole approach whereby people are to be reeducated to find their place in society and to accept the will of the elite planners and to feel that it is the blessed state for them.

Gary, why don’t you lead off and make some observations, whatever you would like to say about your experience in Sweden?

[ G Mose ] Well, shortly before I left Sweden I read a process book that you mentioned The New Totalitarians and, although I haven’t completed reading the book yet what I have read of it seems to be a very timely and very contemporary description of Sweden as it exists today even though the book was written some 10 years ago.

We have discovered in our short stay there, relatively short stay there, it was two years that, indeed, the state has become god in Sweden. The Swedes for... for centuries almost have been predisposed to the idea of a ... of a paternalistic system which, of course, is... is not always bad in a biblical sense, but in this case the ... the role of the father has been assumed by the state and Swedes in virtually every area of their life look to the state for their every provision. This has some very grave implications and consequences on families, on the Church, on education and virtually they ... the living of every aspect of life.

[ Rushdoony ] Carlinda, what would you say about life in Sweden, especially as it affects family life?

[ C Mose ] Well, first of all, Sweden is a very lovely country. And when you first come and even after you have been there a while things look very normal and very calm and families seem to be quite happy. But when you come to know families more intimately, most of the time both parents are absent from the home. Mothers must work because they... they simply can’t provide for their families without both husband and wife working. And, as a result, the children are given quite free reigns to do whatever they like to do. When we first came to Sweden the children were the only ones who welcomed us readily. The... the parents tended to stay away until they knew us or had been formally introduced and... and the children came and... and knew they were welcome in our home and from the beginning we had many children in our home every day. And, as a result, we got to know the children. And I would say that they are not necessarily happy children, although they do seem to have all the things they need for life.

[ G Mose ] Swedes are... are very well taken care of materially, but once you get to know the Swedish people, as Carlinda says, you... you identify almost a longing, a spiritually longing for some dimension to life other than the material.

[ Scott ] I recall talking to an engineer some years ago who had lived in Gothenburg and worked in Gothenburg for about five years, a Dutch engineer. And he said, “Well, it wasn’t bad.” He said, “We all had the same things.” He said, “We had the same little car and we had the same apartment.” He said, “We had the same little house in the country.” And he said, “We had the same kind of furniture and ate the same kind of food and did... and well, he said, it was all the same. And he said, “It got to be unutterably depressing.”

[ G Mose ] Yes. I think we could confer with that. There is a tremendous sameness about virtually everything in Sweden, the things that you listed, homes, cars, to a point that for an outsider, especially for us coming from America where just in the consumer market there is such a great variety of... and it is an overwhelming number of choices. In Sweden there is almost a monotony. And in terms of social relationships this is also the case. There are strong sanctions which are incentives to conformity.

[ Scott ] And well, how do they apply them?

[ G Mose ] Well, to dissent in ... in Sweden is one of the worst crimes that anyone can commit.

[ Scott ] Is it a social crime?

[ G Mose ] Yes.

[ Scott ] ... to contradict, to take issue?

[ G Mose ] Yes.

[ Scott ] Not to agree.

[ G Mose ] Right. And they can be very vicious about it. The president of the college where I was working is a well known dissenter in Sweden and he has been treated with the utmost disdain. He has been slandered in every way possible, in every media... medium possible, not only in the mass media, but gossip in communities. Sweden is really one big community and it is a lot of characteristics of a small town applied to the nation as a whole. Dissenters are well known. Their dissent is never forgotten and never forgiven.

[ Scott ] Is it ever expressed openly?

[ G Mose ] Dissent?

[ Scott ] Yes, I mean ... I mean the idea that you shouldn’t dissent?

[ G Mose ] Oh.

[ Scott ] Or is just simply that everyone who does...

[ G Mose ] Well...

[ Scott ] ... is immediately mistreated.

[ G Mose ] Yes. That is more the case. In fact, they make... they like... make quite a case that ... that the opposite, that they are an open society when that welcomes debate, it welcomes diversity, but it is not the case.

I recall when... the first fall that we were there the teachers, socialist teachers in the community organized all of the school children in a community of about 7000 people to have a mass demonstration on the day. I think it was the 40th anniversary of the founding of the United Nations and also happened to coincide with the Soviet front organization World Peace Council’s international peace demonstration. On Radio Moscow that evening we heard about how there were supposedly spontaneous demonstrations throughout the world in favor of peace and unity.

But anyway the teachers in the community organized the school children, painted placards and put them in their little hands and marched them through the streets to a park where a number of speeches were given about disarmament, the usual socialist themes. The students, small number of students at the college where I taught decided—this was on their own initiative—that they wanted to present an alternative message to the community and so painted some placards to the effect of supporting national defense, peace with strength and some common themes like that which in the United States would hardly cause a ripple. But these students were... were harassed. Carlinda and my children joined with them in holding some placards, simply sit in the background, said nothing, but held the placards. And the police moved in on them. There had been complaints to the police about their presence although the police insisted the Sweden was a free country. They said that our students, my family were breaking the law because they had not applied for a permit to demonstrate.

Our response was that they were just participating in the community wide demonstration, simply bringing a different message, that we didn’t need a permit any more than any other member of the community did since a permit had been acquired by the sponsors and they had invited the entire community to come and join in. Our names were taken. We are on police records there now strictly for having been there, although they did not arrest us. Complaints were filed.

[ Scott ] Complaints were filed.

[ G Mose ] Yes and we were threatened with arrest.

[ Scott ] Threatened with arrest.

[ Rushdoony ] What is the tax rate in Sweden?

[ G Mose ] The tax rate on income tax is an average of 55 percent. And on top of that there is an across the board sales tax of 25 percent.

[ Scott ] Twenty-five.

[ Rushdoony ] Oh, my.

[ G Mose ] Twenty five percent. The ... VAT tax, the sales tax is built in to the posted prices of consumer goods in most cases so that when you go to a ... a boutique or a store the price will include the tax.

[ Scott ] It is included in.

[ G Mose ] Yes.

[ Scott ] So they don’t say so much of tax.

[ G Mose ] We all...

[ Rushdoony ] How can you buy food there, Carlinda?

[ C Mose ] That was difficult. It was very expensive and just to feed a family with four children was difficult. We would go to the grocery store and if we came out and had spent 350 crowns I felt good and that is about 60 dollars.

[ Rushdoony ] Oh, my.

[ C Mose ] And that was a short stop.

[ Scott ] That was a short stop.

[ C Mose ] That was a short stop. A loaf of bread for regular price was about 21 crowns, which is about three dollars and fifty cents at the exchange rate. And everything was expensive, much more expensive than here.

[ Rushdoony ] Rather difficult to feed a family then. What was the quality of the food? Meats, for example.

[ C Mose ] Meats. Sweden has a possibility of having good meat because they ... they raise a lot of their own products, of course. I think the quality was fine.

[ G Mose ] Well...

[ C Mose ] The... the quantity was not.

[ G Mose ] By American standards, I would say that, you know, the beef was not as tender. It was pure. {?} Chicken... we always laughed about the chickens. A whole chicken resembled what we would consider a piece of chicken.

[ Scott ] Oh, really? Tiny chickens?

[ G Mose ] A tiny, bare, scrawny and tough.

[ Scott ] Going back...

[ G Mose ] And we were told that chickens were for laying eggs and when they were finished with that task then they were eaten.

[ Scott ] Oh, they were elderly chickens.

[ G Mose ] Yes.

[ C Mose ] {?}.

[ Scott ] Going back to the dissent business. That is a universal to a great extent. We even pay an awful lot of lip service to our freedom of speech, but conservatives and Christians know that we don’t have the same freedom of speech that the liberal left has in the United States. But it isn’t a community wide thing. It is more of a media, governmental thing versus the community and I think that is a significant difference, because over there it is apparently the whole community shares in this loathing of any contradiction.

[ C Mose ] They contradict privately.

[ Scott ] Oh, they do.

[ G Mose ] Yes.

[ C Mose ] And they are willing to speak to you privately.

[ Scott ] [ affirmative response ]

[ C Mose ] But never for the...

[ Scott ] Not in public.

[ C Mose ] ... for the community to see.

[ Scott ] I see.

[ C Mose ] Exactly.

[ Scott ] So they probably think you are... you are stupid if you do it publicly.

[ C Mose ] Right. We ... I think that we came to be well liked in the town because we... we made an effort to be friendly, but there were people who in the beginning stayed away from us simply because of who we were and who we were associated with.

[ Scott ] You were associated with the local pariah.

[ C Mose ] Right.

[ Rushdoony ] I would like to read something from Huntford’s New Totalitarians. He quotes Aldous Huxley and I quote. “There is, of course, no reason why the new Totalitarianism should resemble the old. Government by firing squad is not merely in human, it is demonstrably inefficient. And in an age of advanced technology, inefficiency is a sin against the Holy Ghost. A really efficient totalitarian state would be one in which the all powerful executive of political bosses and their army of managers control a population of slaves who do not have to be coerced because they love their servitude,” unquote.

And Huntford added, “Of all people it is the Swedes who have come closest to this state of affairs.” In other words, he says they have been educated into this slavery and at least outwardly the profess to love it.

Would you comment on that, both of you?

[ G Mose ] I think that that is an accurate assessment. Whether they love it in their hearts or whether they have simply just become so accustomed to the servitude that they know no other way of life, they are dependent people. It struck me that in many ways the Swedes have become just a... a dependent people, almost to the point of being junkies on the... on the provisions which are given to them, that Sweden was well known for its cradle to the grave provision of the basic needs of mankind. That is not really entirely accurate.

[ Scott ] But they look...

[ G Mose ] Stereotype, but...

[ Scott ] ... they look so good.

[ G Mose ] Right.

[ Scott ] They are tall and ... and husky looking and...

[ G Mose ] That... yeah. They say they... they... they have ... they have become a dependent people, almost afraid to get off of this dependency. And it is ... it is kind of a vicious circle. We talked about that on the tax rate there. Everyone complains about the tax rate. But they are unwilling to take the steps necessary to reduce that tax rate.

[ Scott ] Is it always {?}?

[ G Mose ] In other words, reducing the public bureaucracy. Yes.

[ Scott ] It is withheld.

[ G Mose ] Yes, it is.

[ Scott ] ... because I can’t imagine anybody setting aside 55 percent of their income to pay at the end of the year.

[ G Mose ] Right. Except that, of course, with sales tax which is... which they don’t like to talk about it even being a tax, but it is. You get one fourth of everything that you spend you money on in terms of consumer purchases goes to taxes.

The... the... they hate these taxes and everyone complains about them and they ... in order to recoup what they... what they are putting out in taxes, go for a take and connive and scheme for every way possible to get a government benefit. And it is a matter of survival to recoup what you have paid. And so we have this vicious circle of a demand for government services which, of course, results in a very high tax burden. And so you just have this continual with... vicious circle, spiraling, really...

[ Scott ] What about the tax collectors? I think I read, was it, the great director. I have forgotten his name now, the great movie director...

[ G Mose ] Bergman.

[ Scott ] Ingred Bergman, yes, who fled the country because they were going to imprison him on tax questions.

[ G Mose ] Well, we ran across a number of examples of wealthy people who ... who leave the country. It is the only way the... you know, the very wealthy can survive in their wealthy estate is to take their money and run.

[ Rushdoony ] What is the tax rate at the top limit?

[ G Mose ] I heard example that it was over 100 percent.

[ Rushdoony ] Well, that is confiscation, planned confiscation.

[ Scott ] Total, total.

[ G Mose ] You have wealthy people who, perhaps, maintain a residence in Sweden and they maintain their Swedish citizenship, but spend a good portion of the year out of the country. Quite often it is in Spain where the costs are low and the living is fine along the Riviera and so on. We knew of a number of wealthy people who made that way of life.

[ Scott ] Is there a family allowance?

[ G Mose ] Oh, yes. That is virtually automatic and across the board. If you have children each child is worth, what was it...

[ C Mose ] Four hundred crowns a month.

[ G Mose ] Four hundred crowns a month which would be equivalent of about 60 dollars per child.

[ C Mose ] But that... that goes up with each child you have. If... I think one... one or two children it is that rate, but when you have three it is a ... a little more. And when you have four it is quite a jump.

[ G Mose ] And when you...

[ multiple voices ]

[ Scott ] To encourage larger families.

[ C Mose ] No. I don’t think they encourage larger families.

[ Scott ] Oh?

[ C Mose ] No. I am not sure why they give you more money. I really don’t know.

[ Rushdoony ] And the birthrate is low there.

[ C Mose ] Yes.

[ G Mose ] Yes.

[ C Mose ] Abortion is a... a big factor in family planning and it amazed us that it is not questioned by the churches.

[ Scott ] This is the Lutheran Church?

[ C Mose ] All the churches.

[ G Mose ] All the churches.

[ Scott ] All the churches. Do... do... do they have a state church in Sweden?

[ C Mose ] They do.

[ G Mose ] Yes.

[ Scott ] And they tax for the church, the state church.

[ G Mose ] Tax for the church and the church ... the church boards are elected in a regular civil election and the political parties, including the Communists and the Social Democratic parties run candidates and campaign their candidates for...

[ Scott ] For Communist clergymen.

[ G Mose ] Yes. And for church boards, not the clergymen, but for the church governing board.

[ Scott ] I see.

[ Scott ] And is abortion paid for by the state?

[ G Mose ] Yes.

[ Scott ] And medicine... is there any private medicine?

[ G Mose ] Yes there is some. Although very few.

[ Scott ] Very few.

[ G Mose ] Very few private doctors.

[ C Mose ] Dentists were... were a case in point, I think. I called for an appointment for my children to get in to see the local dentist and they could get in within a month and I said, “Could I get in at the same time?” And they said, “No, you will have to wait two years.”

[ Scott ] Two years.

[ C Mose ] Two years and I ... I...

[ Scott ] Good thing you didn’t have a toothache.

[ C Mose ] I just started laughing and I said, “Two years?” And she said, “Well, you can go to a private dentist if you would like to.” But the waiting list in that town for an adult is two years. I really believe that Sweden is a system that centers around the children and children’s rights and adults all take a back seat.

[ Scott ] What do you suppose is the philosophy behind that? Do they expect to raise a new breed of some sort like the new Soviet man?

[ Rushdoony ] I would suspect that, because the parents are not allowed to impose their beliefs on the children. It is as plan of breaking with the past.

[ Scott ] Yes.

[ Rushdoony ] You cannot spank the child. You cannot force the child to go to Sunday school or church even though they are not worth going to. You cannot impose anything on the child. So it is the state does... that does the imposition.

[ Scott ] Well, how do the children behave under this system?

[ G Mose ] Atrociously.

[ Scott ] Are they... are they difficult with their parents knowing that they are protected by the government?

[ G Mose ] Yes, that... you might not believe that that could happen, but it is very definitely does happen and it is common and it is characteristic of most Swedish homes, I think. The children know that they have a recourse outside of the home. On the children’s television programs there are... there are two channels, two television channels in all of Sweden and they are both owned and operated by the government. And on the children’s television programs occasionally, quote frequently, children are advised that if they have any difficulties with their parents they are invited to call a number which flashes on the screen and they can complain. And once a complaint is made that complaint is accepted as a fact and the child can be removed immediately from a home without any investigation and placed in a foster home. And if a determination is made by the local welfare board that the child’s complaint or a neighbor’s complaint against the parent in favor of a child has some merit, whether it does or it, but if a decision is made that it does, that decision is final. There is no court to appeal to, no ... no recourse whatsoever. There is no appeal from a decision by the child welfare officials.

[ Scott ] So the child is taken from the home permanently?

[ G Mose ] Could be.

[ Scott ] And how do they treat the child in their institutions? My recollection of institutions around the world is that they are not the kindest places.

[ G Mose ] Well Swedes have moved away from... from institutions to a large extent.

[ Scott ] Ah.

[ G Mose ] In most cases children are placed in a...

[ Scott ] A foster home?

[ G Mose ] Foster homes, yes. And, of course, foster homes are approved and licensed which means generally speaking the philosophy of a foster home is one which is acceptable to the social democratic authority.

[ Rushdoony ] In this country the public school counselors are trying to encourage the same kind of attitude among the children stating that if their problems at home, if their parents are making them go to church or Sunday school or have an insistence on prayers in family devotions, to come to them and they will do something about it.

However, it is not as bad as in Sweden.

[ G Mose ] Well, it...

[ Rushdoony ] And...

[ G Mose ] Well, the potential is... is there.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ G Mose ] In... in many states here in the United States virtually the same legal structure exists. I recall as a journalist covering the legislature in Montana when the child abuse laws were vastly broadened.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ G Mose ] To the point where they were almost identical to what we witnessed in Sweden.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ G Mose ] I remember...

[ Rushdoony ] There...

[ G Mose ] ... when the law become effective. There was quite a... a public relations campaign to claim children and public school teachers, day care providers to be alert for evidences of what they called abuse. And that could be just about anything the child didn’t like.

[ Rushdoony ] I know of one instance...

[ G Mose ] Make a complaint and the complaint would be investigated.

[ Rushdoony ] I know one instance in this country in which a junior high boy after getting that kind of talk from counselors threatened his mother that he would report her for her disciplining him. And she said, “Good, you do that and it will be the last thing you ever do.”

He believed here.

[ G Mose ] That is... children will take advantage of this, believe me.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ G Mose ] We feel that our children are fairly well disciplined and understand parental authority and we have always tried to implement biblical principles in our home in terms of discipline, but I don't think we were in Sweden a week and the children being aware of the... the laws there.

When we attempted to discipline them they immediately cited this law and reminded us that they could no be spanked. So, you know, children will... are aware of this and...

[ Rushdoony ] How did you bring them into line?

[ multiple voices ]

[ G Mose ] With great {?}

[ C Mose ] We said, “Not in this house.” People would ask us if we weren’t afraid of that law and we said, “No.” Because we, first of all, are accountable to God. And should that ever been an issue we... we could leave this country. The Swedish Christian parents cannot do that.

[ G Mose ] And, believe me, there are Swedish Christian parents who live in mortal fear of losing their children almost any day.

[ C Mose ] Go ahead.

[ Rushdoony ] Children like that would be worth losing.

[ C Mose ] We have close Christian friends there who have a foster child in their home also and ... and she... the mother told me that she spanked the children until they were to the age that they said, “You can’t do that anymore.” And she said, “You have no idea how it feels to a mother to know that any day I could lose my children.” So, she said, “I stopped spanking my children at a certain age.”

[ Rushdoony ] I would like to call attention now to a well known fact, namely, the anti Americanism of Sweden. And Sweden has been very, very prone to criticizing us in our treatment of minorities. However, as Huntford in his book The New Totalitarian said, and I quote, “The treatment of the Swedish Lapps compares unfavorably in many ways with that of the American Indians. At least the new world settlers openly stole, cheated and conquered. But the Swedes in the 16th century promised the Lapps possession of their land for eternity in the words of a royal charter. Nevertheless, the Swedes dispossessed the Lapps and when iron was discovered in northern Lapland, paid no compensation. Later on money was made available in modest amounts, but administered by Swedish authorities at their discretion alone as charity. The United States government is now paying mineral royalties to the surviving Indians. The Swedes have yet to make comparable amends,” unquote.

Of course, they are very harsh in our ... with regard to our treatment of the blacks. And are as given to mythologies about us as our press is to South Africa.

Carlinda, I believe you were telling me the other day about the response to the Bill Cosby Show in Europe and in Sweden. Could you comment on that?

[ C Mose ] Well, we always had to chuckle a little bit, because everyone there loves The Cosby Show as much as the people do here. But they were ... many of them were just a little bit surprised that there could be such a portrayal of a productive, wealthy American black family. And I am not sure they really believed that that could be possible in our country.

[ G Mose ] That program stands in stark contrast to the typical documentary on life in the United States which dwells on the plight of the slum dweller, particularly the black and, in many chases, the Indians. There is just... there is just an assumption that... that Indians are all down trodden and dispossessed and that the blacks are down trodden and drug addicts who can’t survive living in the streets. So it came as quite a surprise to see quite a different portrayal on an entertainment program about a wealthy, happy, American black family from The Cosby Show and oddly enough, that program has become the number one program in Sweden.

[ Scott ] That is great. How did they treat you individually as Americans in Sweden? Did they express any of these prejudices to you, force you to defend the country, that sort of thing?

[ G Mose ] Well, Sweden... when... when we say Sweden was anti American I think we should clarify that. It... it really isn’t Sweden that is anti American. It is the Social Democratic establishment. It is the Socialists who are anti American.

[ C Mose ] And the media.

[ G Mose ] Well... the Socialists and all of the institutions that they control which is virtually every one.

We found that the average Swedish person, particularly when they got to know us were ... once they got to know us and that is difficult to break through that stereotype Swedish reserve, but once you do, you find a very warm person and we were... we were treated very kindly. We established some very close ties, probably some of the closest ties that we have ever had in our lives, some of the Swedish Christian people.

But the anti Americanism seems to be evaporating somewhat amongst the young people. This was fostered, of course, the anti Americanism was fostered by Olaf Palma and the late prime minster who {?} last year.

But the young people who have ... who have come into their knowledgably years since the... the Vietnam era, for example, almost idolize America that we noticed the one curious thing of the ... the big status symbol for a teenager or a young person in Sweden is to own an old American car. They ... they will hunt them down anywhere they can find them, pay a premium for them. They are all in mint condition and strangely enough they often fly American flags on these old American cars as they drive down the street.

[ Scott ] Well, that is sort of a defiance of the establishment, isn’t it?

[ G Mose ] I think that could be it. There is... as we look at many European things with a sort of chic attitude, it is kind of the reverse there. It is chic to be made in America or to have something American, among the young and among those who are not socialist.

[ Rushdoony ] How about the Christians? I mean, not church men, but the true Christians there? What was your observation, Carlinda? You said you knew a great many.

[ C Mose ] We really came to love them. I believe that they are some of the most praying people I have ever met in my life. They understand, most of them, the praying people, understand what is wrong with their country and they understand what can fix it. And that is only God. And they are not going to look to the churches, because the churches have turned away from them, in fact call them para church if they meet for a Bible study privately or if they are involved with anyone who is not ... who the church doesn’t agree with or who the church wouldn’t support. But these people pray and they ... they pray daily believing that God will heal their land. And we have come to love them and respect them so much and they have taught us so much about praying when the odds are against you.

[ G Mose ] The comprehensive group mentality applies also to the established church in Sweden. As Carlinda said anyone who operates in the spiritual realm without the direct approval and sanction of an established church is labeled a subversive.

[ Scott ] Subversive?

[ G Mose ] Yes. Because we were new in the country and were having difficulty learning the difficult Swedish language and trying to maintain some spiritual fellowship, we asked an evangelist or a missionary friend of ours, an elderly missionary who has spent 50 years on the foreign missions working on his own and he happened to live on our street. We asked him if he would lead an English language Bible study and as it turned out a number of our Christian friends thought this was a good idea and would like to join with us just for the sake of practicing their English and also giving us the spiritual support that we needed. And so we began a... a Bible, just an ordinary Bible study like many Christians have around the world in a private home. And after a few weeks we started to hear rumors and then some pretty solid feedback that this small group of believers, true beliers, worshipping together in this home, just studying the Bible, praising God, praying together for personal needs and the needs of the world and the nation, were, in fact, being considered trouble makers in the community. They ... the local Pentecostal church which is the most evangelical of the churches in Sweden the pastor there actually warned the congregation about this group, about joining with the group. We were quickly labeled as trouble makers again simply for worshipping God together.

[ Scott ] Well, we have had people arrested and put in jail of having Bible classes in their homes in the United States because thy violated the zones, zoning regulations. In Denver and in various other places.

[ Rushdoony ] In Los Angeles.

[ Scott ] Yes.

[ Rushdoony ] And eastern cities.

[ G Mose ] I guess that is what it is coming to. Interestingly enough, in the ... in the midst of... of persecution in that direction, I see the church world wide moving in the direction of the small private groups meeting in homes, the house churches around the world are becoming the... the ... the effective mode of worship and of change, spiritual change in ...

[ Scott ] Well, yes, having lost the clergy.

[ G Mose ] Yeah.

[ Scott ] The people are pulling together with each other.

[ Rushdoony ] Of the fact that you are Dutch, does that help or hinder... in other words, you are not only Americans there, you also have a Netherlands background.

[ G Mose ] I don’t know if many people knew what our national background was. We were asked a few times. And Carlinda is blonde and tall and looks very much the Swede.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ G Mose ] I think everyone since we were there in Sweden must have assumed that we had some Swedish kinship of ... of some kind. So...

[ C Mose ] Well, when they found out I was from Minnesota, then they all knew I had to be Swedish.

[ Rushdoony ] Well, now how about the willingness to learn? Students have mindsets in different parts of the world. In fact, even in this country. What was the mindset of the students there? Of course, you were dealing with a different type of student, one with a little bit more initiative than any of the others.

[ Scott ] You mean in the college.

[ G Mose ] Oh, are you talking about the college students?

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ G Mose ] That was one of the great disappointments, I think, of my consulting career there in Scandinavian Christian University. I had a lot of inquiries from students, so there definitely is interest in ... in an alternative to the state monopoly in education, particularly in the area of journalism. The journalism education in the state schools is thoroughly Marxist. So there is an interest among students and there is an interest among the conservative elements of the media to have an alternative journalism education. So we had a lot of inquiries. But we noticed that as soon as the students found out that this school charged tuition and, by comparison to the United States it was just a pittance, a token tuition, they realized that there was free education to be obtained in the state universities and so that was a major obstacle.

[ Scott ] They are not accustomed to paying for education.

[ G Mose ] No, not accustomed to pay for education.

[ Scott ] Or for anything.

[ G Mose ] Or for anything. And so we... we lost a lot of inquirers that way. The ones that we finally did get, though, and the enrollment is very small there. I was really disappointed, not so much in the caliber of the student, as... as they were... they were bright and some of them showed some ... some real potential in terms of being writers and journalists and reporters. But seemed to lack a determination to get... to obtain a quality education.

They would come to class for a while and then decide it was too much work.

[ Scott ] Oh, really.

[ G Mose ] And would drop out.

[ Scott ] Did they argue?

[ G Mose ] No, not so much. They would ...

[ Scott ] Did they get...

[ G Mose ] They would listen to the lectures.

[ Scott ] Did they get up and say, “This isn’t what I have been told all my life,” thinks like that?

[ G Mose ] Yes, that was mentioned. That didn’t particularly upset them. They... they came to the school knowing that it was definitely an alterative and that it represented an alternative point of view. But I have to say the big disappointment was it just seemed to be a lack of incentive to study and to stick with...

[ Scott ] They didn’t... did they turn in papers? Did they perform at all?

[ G Mose ] One of the... one of the real difficulties.

[ Scott ] They wouldn’t turn in a paper.

[ G Mose ] They wouldn’t turn in papers.

[ Scott ] Well, do you know we are having that hear? My daughter tells me that of her classes, you know, she is finished now, but most of the time they didn't do the projects. Most of the class didn’t do the project.

[ G Mose ] That is a real problem.

[ Scott ] Just couldn’t do it.

[ Rushdoony ] What was the attitude generally to students, community people, towards the Soviet Union?

[ G Mose ] Well, it is generally at least on... on the public face it is positive. There is a ... there is an... almost what I identified as a ... as a desire to believe the Soviets. There was... you felt and under current that ... that they knew they were being lied to and the Soviets would speak to them. They would speak to the world at large.

[ Scott ] Well it is like our disarmament editorials with...

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ G Mose ] Yeah.

[ Scott ] I mean, there is a great desire to hear it, to think that everything will be all right.

[ G Mose ] That is it. And... and I came to see it almost as a ... a mentality that, well if we are nice to the Soviets maybe they won’t bother us.

[ Scott ] Well, sure.

[ G Mose ] They will go away.

[ Scott ] If we don’t... if we don’t put up SDI then they won’t get angry.

[ G Mose ] Yeah.

[ Scott ] You know, the more you tell me about Sweden the more it seems to me that the whole West is in the same situation.

[ G Mose ] Oh, yes. It is very much... Sweden is...

[ Rushdoony ] It goes beyond the West.

[ G Mose ] Yes.

[ Rushdoony ] It is the whole world.

[ Scott ] Well...

[ Rushdoony ] And it has a common culture. Some are further into it than others.

[ G Mose ] And Sweden is probably just on the vanguard of a world wide movement.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ Scott ] Well.

[ G Mose ] Like you...

[ Scott ] It is... it is a little bit more exaggerated there.

[ G Mose ] Yeah.

[ Scott ] I mean, there...

[ G Mose ] Oh, it had an early start.

[ multiple voices ]

[ G Mose ] The {?} mentality existed almost... it really did exist even before Socialism became established in the Soviet Union.

[ Scott ] Oh, yes. I mean we had Ibsen and all of that stuff was popular in the 90s, wasn’t it?

[ G Mose ] It was... it was a collective mentality in Sweden way back into the Middle Ages. And so when the Socialists... when Marxism became a factor in the world the ground was already prepared for it already in Sweden and there was just a ... a simple acceptance of it that the Social Democrats politically just moved into a fertile field that was already prepared for that.

[ Scott ] Well here in the United States Wisconsin and Minnesota have always been very socialistic.

[ G Mose ] Yeah. And we were both... both born and raised in that area of the country and having been in Sweden now we certainly understand much better why that area of the country is the way it is.

[ Scott ] Well, I remember the...

[ multiple voices ]

[ Scott ] ... mayor of Milwaukee was a socialist mayor for over 20 years. And the Socialist party, the Socialism Labor Party which was a Trotskyite party, but the Socialist Party, the real Socialist Party was very strong up in that part of the... of the... of the United States. And I don’t know... We... we ... we have a situation here. We have liberals who are Socialists. They call themselves liberals. But they are actually Socialists.

[ G Mose ] Interestingly enough they ... one of the non Socialist parties in Sweden goes by the name of the Liberal Party.

[ Scott ] Well, we {?} were you sad to leave? Did you... did you ever get past the colonial stage? You know, at first everything is foreign. Everything is different and it is interesting. Then everything is different and it becomes a pain in the neck and you can’t stand it. And if you overcome the second stage then, they tell me, you are acclimated.

[ G Mose ] Well...

[ Scott ] Did you ever get that?

[ G Mose ] I think things...

[ Scott ] That stage?

[ G Mose ] I don’t think. ... I think we left with both of those feelings still resistant. I personally enjoyed living in Europe. I used to say just because it is different.

[ Scott ] Sure.

[ G Mose ] I really enjoyed the differences, the cultural differences, learning about it and being that close to the Soviet Union. One of my real interests is ... is Soviet foreign policy and foreign action. So I spent a great deal of my time in the evenings listening to and analyzing Radio Moscow’s...

[ Scott ] English program.

[ G Mose ] English.

[ Scott ] Really...

[ multiple voices ]

[ G Mose ] And I... I guess we subscribed to the International Herald Tribune which is a combination of the . of the Times and the...

[ Scott ] And the Washington Post.

[ G Mose ] And the Washington Post. And it was incredible listening to Radio Moscow and its very common propaganda themes and then turning to this newspaper....

[ Scott ] And the angles.

[ G Mose ] ... and hearing the exact {?}

[ Scott ] {?}

[ G Mose ] ... the phrases and words showing up, you know, within days.

[ Scott ] Working together.

[ G Mose ] Working hand in hand. It was ... it was more than a coincidence just happening.

[ Rushdoony ] What do the people hope for there, Carlinda? Let’s say the average family, a housewife, what is their vision of the future?

[ C Mose ] Most of my friends were Christians so I can speak about them. The ones I know would like to have Christian education for their children. I think they are afraid for their children because they know that they are going to be taught things they don’t want them taught, but they have no way of stopping that. Christian education is available in some places, as long as it is state approved curriculum. But it is in very few places. And one family we know would dearly love to come to the United States, but had no relatives here. They had no job here. So it is probably impossible. And they would like their children to be saved from what they face.

[ G Mose ] They have some ... some close friends who are refugees from Iran, very family oriented family, although they are not Christians. They are Muslims probably. Came to Sweden because it was available to them, the best way that they could get out of Iran. They were being well taken care of as many immigrants are based on their initial status. The family left because they have a 14 year old son who was very close to being inducted into the army and they knew that when he was he would be on... he would be dead as Khomeini is sending the waves to the Iraqi front and that is the last they hear. So we have, you know, hundreds and thousands of Iranian families who are leaving Iran to save their children. This particular family now had ... has just written me a letter begging me to help them come to the United States because they still fear for their children. They want to bring their children up in a way that they can have control over them in a positive sense, to rear them as they... according to their own values and they know that that is not going to be possible in Sweden.

[ Scott ] Well, Sweden is the first country to wipe out the laws against pornography, was it not?

[ G Mose ] I am not sure about that statistic, but it could very well be evidence what is available in terms of pornography in the country.

[ C Mose ] That was one of the most distressing things to me, to go to the grocery store and at the lowest rack level the most obscene magazines that you could imagine and any picture that you can imagine was visible to children in the places where you rented video movies the worst pornography was mixed right in, next to, in fact, the children’s movies. Movies are rated for younger ages not by sex and bad language but by violence. The Three Musketeers was an R rated movie or a movie rated for older children because there was sword fighting, but we took home a movie for our son’s birthday. It was a comedy that was rated for children six years old, had the most foul language you can imagine.

[ G Mose ] You have got to watch very carefully.... my watching television. Movies are always run uncut. As a family we ... we spent some time watching any English language program that would be on just to have something to watch when we first came and on occasion we would watch an American television movie or ... or a theater movie that hadn't been shown on American television and we hadn't seen it on television and thought it to be a good, clean movie. And then realizing in the middle of the program that apparently it had been cut and censored for a American television and not so in Swedish television. And we suddenly found our children influencing with nude scenes and... and sexual escapades and so you always had to watch. You never knew what would show up on television.

[ Rushdoony ] What effect did this have on the Swedish people?

[ G Mose ] Well, they seem numb to the whole idea. In fat, they are proud that this is ... is the Swedish way to be liberated sexually, not to be ashamed of their bodies. They make a great case about that. They are not ashamed of their bodies so we could go out to the public beaches and the children generally swim without any swimming suit on and the adults. The women commonly...

[ C Mose ] Free to swim...

[ G Mose ] Swim topless.

[ C Mose ] ...topless.

[ G Mose ] So in fact...

[ C Mose ] In fact it is...

[ G Mose ] ... that is a very common thing.

[ C Mose ] It is not... it is not unusual to have your next door neighbor sunbathing in the nude.

[ Rushdoony ] Well, you can see why with that kind of thing prevalent there, there is a hostility towards Christians and Christian standards.

It is said that Norway offers some resistance to this sort of thing. Were you able to get any insight into the situation in Norway?

[ G Mose ] Well, limited. The insight that I did get was very disappointing in one particular area. That was in the area of homosexuality. Norway, in fact, goes with the first nation in the world to pass a... a national law forbidding any kind of discrimination against homosexuals and that is so sweeping that it includes making derogatory remarks about homosexuality.

[ Scott ] Oh, you mean...

[ G Mose ] ...in public or anywhere.

[ Rushdoony ] Were the pulpits?

[ G Mose ] Yes. And including from the pulpit. That ... that is how the matter came to my attention. One of the adjunct professors at the college where I worked or a professor of practical theology it is... the pastor of the largest, fastest growing full gospel churches in Oslo, very, very active Christian Reconstructionist as a matter of fact and very active in ... in applying the Christian faith to practical areas of…. of living in society. He also was the first to establish a Christian radio broadcast and has now broken the television monopoly and has put together a television satellite network.

On his radio programs so the subject of homosexuality was discussed. And he led a ... a nation wide campaign against homosexual influence in Norwegian society and the homosexuals would call into this radio program and pretend to be repentant homosexuals and ask for prayers and then in the middle of the conversation would suddenly throw off the mask and start to say very obscene things to him, proposition him on the air, harass him to the point where he just couldn’t accept calls on his program anymore.

On one of his programs he prayed a prayer and the prayer was that.... that God would bring an end to the influence of homosexuals in Norway. A lesbian member of parliament who was responsible for passage of that law brought charges against him, criminal charges. He was originally acquitted in the local court and the ... though the work of this lesbian member of parliament the national minister of justice prosecuted an appeal to the supreme court and that ... that acquittal—it couldn’t happen in the United States—but the acquittal was overturned and he was convicted at the supreme court level. The case was sent back to city court where for sentencing he was sentenced to jail time which was suspended and given a fine. I forget the amount now, but it was a substantial fine.

[ Scott ] Well, what should you call them over there?

[ G Mose ] {?}

[ Scott ] Excellencies?

[ G Mose ] Yeah. You just... you just don’t say anything of a negative nature about homosexuality.

And his prayer that... simply a prayer not naming anymore.

[ Scott ] Well, then effectively...

[ G Mose ] ... not calling of the state.

[ Scott ] ... there is no freedom of speech.

[ G Mose ] That is exactly what happened in his case.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes, that is a good point, Otto. Freedom of speech is being destroyed in the name of non discrimination. And freedom of speech requires that you discriminate between good and evil, right and wrong.

[ Scott ] Well, of course and it also means freedom to express your opinion.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ Scott ] And you have a perfect God given right to dislike something. You know, if you don’t like spinach, that is ok. And if you don’t like an individual that is ok, too. You don’t have a right to be unjust, but you certainly don’t have to admire what is loathsome to you.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes. Well, our time is just about up. I think this has been a most rewarding session because it tells us the direction of our world today. Sweden is, as you said, in the vanguard and here where we can still speak out against some of these things, we had better do it and set an example for the world and reverse this world trend or else God is going to judge us. To whom much is given, much shall be required, our Lord said.

Well, we thank you all for listening. God bless you all and we are going not go into some other areas behind the iron curtain with Gary and Carlinda on another occasion.

[ Voice ] Authorized by the Chalcedon Foundation. Archived by the Mount Olive Tape Library. Digitized by ChristRules.com.