From the Easy Chair

World Colonialism & Indigenous Ed.

Professor: Dr. R.J. Rushdoony

Subject: Conversations, Panels and Sermons

Lesson: X-214

Genre: Speech

Track:

Dictation Name: RR161CR174

Year: 1980s and 1990s

Dr. R. J. Rushdoony, RR161CR174, World Colonialism & Indigenous Ed., from the Easy Chair, excellent colloquies on various subjects.

[ Rushdoony ] This is R. J. Rushdoony, Easy Chair number 284, February the third, 1993.

Douglas Murray, Otto Scott, Mark Rushdoony and I are going to discuss the very important subject of Colonialism. Now Colonialism is not a new concept in history. There have been colonial powers in the past such as the Greek city states who created colonies throughout Asia Minor and Colonialism is not necessarily identifiable with Imperialism, although sometimes the two have gone together.

Most people, however, when they talk about Colonialism have reference to the Colonialism of the European powers, primarily in Africa from about the... well, mid 1800s, basically, to 1960. That particular form of Colonialism began, in part, if not to a major degree, in response to a plea by the great Scottish missionary David Livingstone. David Livingstone saw the appalling condition that was endemic to Africa. And, by the way, the slave trade was not primarily to Europe and the Americas. It had existed for centuries back to the remotest days of history from Africa to the Middle East and especially to the Far East, India, China and other points.

Livingstone said that what Africa needed above all else was Christianity, civilization and commerce. And he appealed to the European powers to undertake Colonialism in Africa as a work of benevolence, as a charitable work to help their fellow human beings, people to whom Livingstone was particular attached.

Now it is true that some colonial enterprises were at times ugly. Most notably and fearfully Belgian Congo under Leopold. The Germans made some bad blunders in their colonies, primarily because of their zeal to discipline the blacks, that is, to teach them a disciplined way of life. And they did not realize that the blacks they were dealing with in the Cameroons and elsewhere did not have the disciplined parentage of the Germans. As a result their policy backfired badly.

But basically the colonial work of France and of Britain was, on the whole, a plus. It brought health and education and made possible the growth of the Christian missionary work to those areas of Africa where they were in power.

In recent years, of course, it has been impossible to get a good word in to any kind of dialogue open to the general public in favor of Colonialism.

Now we have a return to Colonialism under a variety of terms. What we are doing in Somalia is simply Colonialism, U N Colonialism. And it will not deal with a basic problem that the Somali peoples were a group of tribes and they have progressively broken down to those tribes and their leaders called warlords are jockeying for power and for territory. And the same thing is happening all through Africa. We have paid no attention to the fact that we have had U N troops, for example, in Cambodia for some years now. They are supposed to pull out at the end of this year. They have accomplished nothing.

First the Khmer Rouge still controls a sizable segment of Cambodia or Kampuchea and the minute the U N troops leave they will take it over, particularly because the U N troops were able to find the other factions cooperative. And they were able to disarm them. But the Khmer Rouge refused to be disarmed. And the U N troops didn’t dare tackle them. So we have a disaster there that we have created in Cambodia and we are doing nothing to tell the truth of it to the general public. We are acting as though we have suddenly embarked on a new noble course by going into Somalia.

Well, with that general introduction, Douglas, would you like to carry the ball for a while?

[ Murray ] Well, my memory of the term Colonialism really spans my education which was, after World War II and the... the word colonial or Colonialism became an epithet.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ Murray ] And so there was really not a great deal of serious study in the public school system that I went through regarding Colonialism in a... in a positive aspect. It was always dealt with in a negative way. And it has only been in more recent years from reading that I found out what the benefits were to both indigenous people that were... that were already in the new area that was colonized and also it has been largely ignored that colonialization for the country that the people came from acted as a safety valve that, in many cases, kept them from having civil wars over irreconcilable differences that allowed people an escape route that could not deal with the ... the power structure in the country that they emigrated from.

So the ... the colonial system had a lot of different... a lot of different meanings to people.

[ Rushdoony ] Otto?

[ Scott ] Well, of course, I remember the colonial world and my family were ... were engaged in that. Scotts and my branch of the Scott clan was active in Jamaica for almost 300 years. They were merchants. And I remember when, of course, before World War II when the Atlantic powers colonies were still in tact. And there was a great deal more goodwill between the colonists and the... the people they ... that administered than the modern world can recall or will believe.

The fruits of European civilization were extended around the world, which is something that no other civilization ever did. The Chinese... China for a long time had the largest empire and the richest empire in the world. And the Chinese people were forbidden to leave and foreigners were forbidden to enter that empire. And all their inventions, gun powder, printing, paper money, which is one of theirs, all kinds of things, were state secrets, not to be shown or to be give not any foreigner. The secret of silk and so forth.

The Caucasian people of Europe were the only people in all history to distribute the fruits of their efforts and make them available to every other group. And the colonial system extended the life span, not only of the colonies, but of every group in the world: medicine, sanitation, bridges, roads, factories, agriculture and everything else. The .... the black people in Africa, especially in central Africa were .... did not really have a very long colonial experience. They ... the Europeans would... penetrated beyond the coasts into the heart of Africa only in the latter part of the 19th century and they left in 1960. So you have a period of maybe three generations. Three generations were not enough to educate them.

The English really thought they had done it in Nigeria. They had a system of law. They had a constitution. They had judges with wigs. They had their leaders go to Cambridge and Oxford and so forth. They had cities. They had Lagos. They had everything. They have oil even. And yet after they left within a year there was a civil war which cost one million dead. And it is very interesting that the Americans have never really studied the black races. They have never, for instance... I was in a home in New Orleans of a man who was very well to do and had a very good library. He had, in fact, I was told, he had the best library on black white relations in the country. And I went over and looked at the books and they... every one of them dealt with American black and white relations.

Now all the Europeans or the western Europeans, Atlantic Europeans had their efforts with the blacks, the French and Portuguese intermarried. That is how they solved it. The Germans, as... as... as Rush said, the English and {?} the Spanish...

[ Rushdoony ] Italians.

[ Scott ] And the Italians. And all of them in their various ways tried to bring them up and yet nobody here has ever looked at any of those experiments, although we have all these so-called social scientists, a name that... oh, the term always makes me laugh. They have never looked at the experience of Europe with the black races in trying to devise an approach here to overcome, let us say, realistically, our neglect in that area. We didn’t educate them before when they were slaves and after they were released we didn’t educate them properly. We have never really made a serious effort to help them in that regard and this is a national disgrace which we have never actually been able to confront. What we have done is to desegregate. Well, that is not the same.

Education is something which is not easy to attain and it is not easy to administer as you know. It is not fun. But we have never really made the effort. So the colonial powers did. They did stop slavery. They did educate them. Your western Europe did a much better job than we did.

[ Murray ] Well, their health care system in Africa was better under Colonialism than it is today.

[ Scott ] We should not be proud in this area. We have done a lousy job. And we see the results.

[ Murray ] Well, I think the flaw is that people in this country tend to see peoples in Africa as all one people.

[ Scott ] Yes.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ Murray ] And... and have failed to see, you know, the tribal rivalries which took place in Nigeria and is taking place in South Africa today and ... and various other countries in Africa that as soon as there is ... the colonial power has left, their social structure broke down to tribal warfare.

[ Scott ] Ands some of the tribes are more energetic than others. There is a difference in the tribes which they paid. The Europeans colonials did learn those differences. And if you go to South Africa today they will tell you the differences. They know the head dresses, they know the costumes and they know the behavior and the pattern. We have never even done that with the Indians. Most ... when I was a boy and went to public school for brief periods here in the United States, the only thing they told me was that these fellows were making pottery and ... and weaving blankets and all kinds of nonsense. They never told us the difference between the tribes, the Iroquois and the Apache or anything else. We have not seriously studied these areas that we should.

[ Rushdoony ] Well, one of the appalling facts of our day is that most people have no knowledge of what good has been accomplished by Colonialism. India is a classic case. India has had problems of a very serious sort. And it was united under the Moguls by sheer brute power. The Moguls are idealized because tourists can go and see the famous...

[ Scott ] The Taj Mahal.

[ Rushdoony ] The Taj Mahal and things like that. Oh, they must have been a great people to have built something like that, which was a tomb for one of the many, many women that the emperor had.

Well, when the British took India by default because the British East India company was there and little by little to maintain its work it had to protect itself and it in the process of defending itself from attack and port cities wound up conquering an area or some local maharaja asking for protection so little by little the East India Company developed into an empire which then Britain took over.

But at the time that they did, {?} the burning of widows was routine. The British ended it and it is reviving. Human sacrifices were routine and that is reviving. Mark, you can tell us about what you learned about them, the dam in...

[ M Rushdoony ] Bangladesh.

[ Rushdoony ] Bangladesh when I am through. Minorities were protected and so on and on.

In the 1930s at the height of the British power in India they had a total of 5000 British civil servants and military officers to govern that vast subcontinent and its huge population. The rest was all done with native troops, native officials, all trained by the English, very commonly at Oxford and Cambridge so the idea that Britain was keeping India in bondage forcibly is nonsense. Five thousand whites could have been eliminated over night at any time.

So the story of India is one that can be repeated in place after place. Indochina, the stories of that are amazing.

Do you want to tell them now about Bangladesh and what you found out there?

[ M Rushdoony ] Oh, this was 10 years ago. I was there and talked to someone who was talking about a major dam project that had occurred a few years earlier. I believe, if my memory serves me, it was some sort of a United Nations development project, United Nations... or the United States contributed a lot of money to it. In the course of building this dam the local tribal leaders sacrificed human lives towards the success of this project as one of their old rituals. And now this huge development project. Human lives were sacrificed to insure the success and prosperity of this endeavor.

But when I was there 10 years ago, I believe, there were 700 million people and I think read now that there are 830 or 40 million people there and I forget how many dialects there was, but I believe ether is something like two or 300 dialects. So it is... it is... it is a country as apolitical unit and it is... it is a... it is a... it is a place that could explode at any time and it... well, it has. It was beginning then and it is continuing. That is true many areas. The maps are very artificial and it is sort of a... a left over of colonialism that we regard these artificial distinctions on the map as somehow legitimate boundaries.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes. You are ... someone has said of late that India, sooner or later, is going not break up into a number of countries. Do you remember, Mark, you reported on the persecution and the seizure of the lands of the {?} hill tribes who were about 50 percent Christian by the Bengalis.

[ M Rushdoony ] Right. They were a... a tribal minority, not par t of the... the Bengali race, you might say, in Bangladesh. So they were ... they were treated very badly. And they were simply told even though for ... for many years. ... Beginning... the had been protected under Colonialism. They had been guaranteed that the rights to their traditional tribal lands. Since the end of Colonialism the new Bengali government came in and though absolutely nothing of these tribals and decided that these lands could be better used by Bengali people. So the tribals in the {?} hills were basically being pushed on to, in to interment camps and they were being assigned certain areas of which the could farm, some of which were a number of miles from where they were required to be at night in these camps. So their rights that had been recognized and preserved under Colonialism were now being brushed, brushed away by the democratic majority.

[ Rushdoony ] It was your article on that that helped, together with the work that Howard Amundsen did to crystallize enough opinion so that the {?} hill people, at least for the time, were returned to their lands.

[ Scott ] Well, of course, because we were a colony and took great pride in breaking away from Britain, Americans were taught that Colonialism was evil. And never really faced up to the realities of the Indians, put them on reservations eventually. But never early faced up to the task of civilizing the Indians here, as the Spaniards civilized the Indians at Mexico as much as they could.

And Spain was the great colonial power. It had colonies for 400 years. After Rome it looked... their colonies lasted the longest. The Philippines still have a Spanish culture, Spanish Catholic culture. And the same is true with Latin America. We never admitted the value of the Spanish culture. And by failing to admit it and failing to imitate it we made grave mistakes in our dealings with the blacks and the Indians.

The greatest mistake we made for the whole world, though, was to insist that the Atlantic nations give up their colonies after World War II. And in the process we planted the idea that it was inherently unjust for white people to rule over any other race. So it was a racial argument that we used.

Now I was charged with being in favor of Apartheid. And I said, “No, I am not.” But I am in favor of the best government for the greatest number of people, irrespective the racial component of the rulers. There is no question in my mind that the white people of South Africa could do a better job for all the races in South Africa than the blacks can do. And that simple proposition has been very difficult to propose to an American because they get all confused with questions of equality and sentimentality.

Now the reaction of the black minority in the United States—it is a pretty big minority. It is 30 million—to every concession that has been made since the dynasty of Lyndon Johnson has been to demand more and to be angrier. I mean if we gave them everything they asked for they would then turn around and murder us. I am sure, because their reaction is that any concession comes from weakness. And if you are weak they will attack.

[ Murray ] I think the South Africans are going to find that out the hard way.

[ Scott ] Indeed, they are.

[ Rushdoony ] You mentioned the American Indians, Otto. Very little that we read tells the truth about them. They practiced cannibalism in a great many instances and also slavery. They were slave owners.

[ Scott ] Of course.

[ Rushdoony ] Before any white American...

[ Scott ] All... all... all primitive tribes...

[ Rushdoony ] ... every adopted...

[ Scott ] ... are slave owners.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ Scott ] And it goes with it.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes. So that it has become a... more or less forbidden to say that this was practiced by Indians or by Africans or by any minority group, only the whites have done it and theirs was particularly evil supposedly although it was probably the most benevolent form of slavery the world has ever seen.

[ Scott ] Well, we changed the world after World War II by destroying the colonial system. We joined the ...

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ Scott ] ... with ... with the Communists to destroy the colonial properties of western Europe, but we condoned the Marxist occupation of Eastern Europe and making colonies out of those countries. That was all right. But we have ... now we are looking at the results of decolonization. There are millions of black Africans wandering around in that continent now that are starving and diseased because... that used to have homes and that used to be well fed and used to take care of themselves under the colonial system. We have brought untold suffering to the world.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ Scott ] In the name of goodness. We have not admitted our error. We have not apologized for it. We don’t feel guilty about it. And we are in the process here of decolonizing, in a way, internally. And failing in our duty to educate these newcomers and these minorities to western European levels.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ Scott ] And we are paying the price at home and aboard. Now what are we doing in Somalia? Red Cross work, social work. How long will we stay? What is it going to benefit us? Why are we doing it? None of these questions have been answered.

[ Rushdoony ] No. I think we should consider Somalia a bit more, because it is critical. We have walked into a swamp with lots of quick sand and one person knowledgeable about Somalia has doubted that we will ever solve their problems and get out with any credit. At least the Colonialism that Livingstone favored began with a premise that Christianity would be promoted, that there was no future in any respect for these areas of Africa without Christianity. Of course, that we don’t consider at all now. In fact, problems are made for the missions, do exist and very few do now. Africa and other areas have been closed steadily since World War II.

[ Scott ] We are actually helping Muslims in Somalia.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ Scott ] And we are ... our press has taken the Muslim side in the Yugoslavian conflict.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ Scott ] So we are in the strange position of helping people who detest our civilization and our faith.

[ Rushdoony ] Exactly and we are doing the same thing with regard to Armenia, Azerbaijan and Turkey, are happy with the fact that the European powers and Washington have placed themselves firmly on their side for a very strange reason, namely they want to be on the right side with Islam. They don’t want to alienate.

[ Scott ] Well, they are alienating it ever day.

[ Rushdoony ] Of course.

[ Scott ] Through Israeli policy.

[ Rushdoony ] Of course. But they are going to make an uproar by sacrificing Christians. But Somalia has a very difficult problem because we insist on seeing it as a nation.

[ Scott ] It is not.

[ Rushdoony ] And... and none of the African countries are nations in any true sense of the word.

[ Scott ] Exactly.

[ Rushdoony ] They have to be seen as tribal groups. We have destroyed Nigeria which was a great power. And today the European made cities are surviving only where the European money is flowing. The British courts are now being destroyed by termites, the courts and their chambers and all are gone. And we allowed the massacre by the Islamic population, of vast numbers of Christians immediately after the end of Colonialism, the Ebos.

[ Scott ] Yes. Well, here in the United States a very strange development. The black people of the United States have become convinced that the white people have been placed on earth by God to take care of them, that it is our duty, our holy, Christian duty to support all the black people. They argue that we should bring in more Haitians. We have already brought in a million from Haiti and the island only has three and a half million. They want us to bring them all and then, of course, all of the rest of the Caribbean stew will follow.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ Scott ] Now we have never really faced up to the results, the consequences of having implanted that idea, that we are responsible for their lives. My own opinion, as a Christian, is that God put black men on earth to take care of their own wives and children. That is their duty and it is our duty to take care of ours. And if we go beyond that, beyond the business of it being as good as we can in our own area, all we do is open up a chain of evils. Now how are we going to get out of this?

[ Rushdoony ] Yes. And what they don’t say when they talk about these people in Haiti is that Haiti is one of the main locales in the world of AIDS.

[ Scott ] Well, we are actually listening to a man who tell us that we should bring I the diseased of the world.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ Scott ] It is our duty.

[ Murray ] That is the reason they want to come here, just to... within the last couple of days there was a boatload about ready to leave of about 250 of them and they checked and found out that they all had AIDS.

[ Scott ] Oh, really?

[ Murray ] So they wanted to come to the United States to get medical treatment. But I think where he mistake was that all of the Caribbean nations took a look at what we did with Puerto Rico when we extended our welfare system to Puerto Rico. They all get checks and the rest of the Caribbeans take a look at that and think, gee, that is not a bad idea.

[ Scott ] Well, the colonial powers... only Portugal made the mistake of intermarriage. And it was a mistake because within three generations Portugal ceased to be a first class power. And they were great in their day. They were the great explorers, the great seamen and so forth. And they had a vey high culture. When the Portuguese finally withdrew from east Africa those who held Portuguese citizenship went o Portugal itself and the Portuguese in Lisbon were astonished that they were all black. And the black people in Africa did not forgive the Portuguese even though the Portuguese intermarried. They insisted that they get out and we are running into this here. We are running into the argument which is now arising on the fringes and not only the fringes of the black community that to ... to become successful I the white man’s world is to become white. And the unsuccessful blacks are very resentful of those of their race who move upwards. Tom Sole, for instance, is ... and Walter Williams are always castigated.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes. And now there is a major movement in Africa and in Jamaica and it will be in this country very shortly that the white Europeans and the Americans must make reparations to black Africa and to the blacks in the Americas.

[ Scott ] Well, I am sure we have some who would be willing to do it if they could use our money.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ Murray ] The ... after World War II, you know, the... the word Colonialism became synonymous with exploitation. And this propaganda has been fed every public school kid since World War II and I think that is one of the reasons that there hasn’t been a great deal of study in the positive effects of Colonialism. People who are scholars just don’t feel that it is a popular subject to deal with.

[ Scott ] It is a dangerous subject.

[ Murray ] Well, sure.

[ Scott ] Well, if you are a professor you can lose your job.

[ Murray ] The... the interesting irony is that our going to Somalia there is an interesting geo strategic... something of geo strategic value in Somalia and that is that the Russians built a huge air base down there. Somalia, being a non Arab country and that air base being a convenient distance from the Persian Gulf makes one wonder about the exploitation angle of Colonialism. Our going to Somalia is ... may have other purposes.

[ Scott ] It may have, but we have difficulty, if we are going to assume colonial responsibilities as Paul Johnson has recommended.

The English had 400 years to get acquainted with the world. And they got acquainted with the world. They... they acquired their international Empire almost by accident, because they sent the trade went first, commerce went first. And the army came in later. The Church and the traders went first and after they ... they had made inroads the army followed because there were difficulties that arose between the traders and the church and the native territories. And so the army came in to protect the English. The English for a long time took pride in protecting their citizens no matter where the citizen was. And in protecting the right of the citizens to engage in commerce freely as free men and if the local ruler would break an agreement with an English company, an English gun boat would appear and he would regret that.

So they taught the world, they do business honorably, do it freely, exchange goods and so forth. It was a rather complicated system. But it wasn’t sat... it wasn’t centrally planned. It developed. And at the end of those centuries they had people who could speak the native languages. They had experts in administration. They raised men in Oxford and Cambridge along lines that we would... or... or lets say rugby and Westminster and so forth, along lines that we would never have redone. They let the boys rule the schools and they raised fellows who really know how to get along with other men.

Now we don’t have ... we don’t have an educated class of equal quality. We don’t know anything about other cultures. We refuse to believe that they are not Americans.

[ Rushdoony ] When Livingstone stated that we should go into these countries with Christianity, civilization and commerce, he was really summing up something which went back generations to what you were talking about, the traders and the missionaries working all over the world. Now long before Livingstone was born the British had two societies and I cannot recall the exact name of one which was for the advancement of Christianity all over the world and the other the SPCK the society for the promotion of Christian knowledge. And both groups did remarkable work and there was to a part of the world that they did not cover with their activity.

People today are largely ignorant of those two societies. And the SPCK has gone down hill dramatically. It has become quite modernistic. You and I have been to...

[ Scott ] We went there. We went there.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ Scott ] Yes.

[ Rushdoony ] Primarily for the area and the back which is owned by a private party, Higgam or Hiam. I don’t know how it is pronounced.

[ Scott ] Hiam, I believe.

[ Rushdoony ] Hiam. Well, very superior dealer in used books. But the front part is still SPCK. And I couldn’t find one really good study in their current work. But for a few centuries they were outstanding in what they published. And their influence was felt world wide.

[ Scott ] Well, they were very sincere. You know, a lot of the empire was put together by the Scots.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ Scott ] And remember I spoke in... I guess it was Edinburgh about the cab driver I talked to in Caracas who knew who I was and who said that he ... I said, “Your English is better than my Spanish.” And he said, “Oh, grandfather taught me.”

My grandfather, Philip Scott taught English to people in his office after hours. And he never mentioned it and I never knew it. He never said a word about it. It was just something that he did.

There was a responsibility involved in dealing with people who needed to be trained and needed to be educated and of course you could take advantage of, but you would be a damn poor man to do it and it would be much better to build an enterprise. And he was one of the pioneers down there of the royal Dutch Shell. This aspect is what we have not followed. We have done an awful lot of lip service and we have paid a great deal of attention to the sins of other countries, but we have not really followed through on this level and we do lack an educated class.

[ Rushdoony ] Well, the selfless work of some of these men, SPCK and other societies and Scottish groups especially fanning out all over the world and the standard that some of them who also helped in the work of traders as a means of gaining entre into some areas was such that they created a remarkable group of native peoples.

For example, the Sikhs. They were an elite group of civil and military people working for the British Empire. The {?} rifles, it was a privilege to belong to them, fierce and amazing fighters. And it is interesting that the {?} rifles still retain their identity.

[ Scott ] Well, they fought in the Falklands. They frightened the Argentineans...’

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ Scott ] ... out of their shoes.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes. And their swordsman go to Edinburgh for the tattoo there to perform with a great deal of pride. So a high standard of selfless and totally dedicated service was created.

[ Scott ] Well, the Americans are very charitable. But charity does not really do the job. What men have to learn is to how to work and how to be responsible. And I bought this up before. I hope I don’t bore your with it again. When {?} went down to Africa, South Africa in the 1860s after he came back he said, “We are making a mistake in dealing with the black man. We are not treating him as a man. We are treating him as a younger brother.” And he said, “That is what caused both of us trouble.”

We have to hold other people to the same standards we hold ourselves.

[ Rushdoony ] That has been our failure also. Yes. Making Christianity viable means that you regard all people as having a common obligation under God.

[ Scott ] Exactly. That is really the Christian message.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes. Well, we are seeing now the disintegration of Africa to a far greater degree than any publication will tell you. You find out about it with hints here and there or correspondence of someone on the scene and you have the same disintegration in the Far East. India, as I mentioned earlier is in an advanced state of decay and it might not take much to trigger it, although someone has said it could take a generation, but it could happen any time.

So the U N has nothing to contribute except troops. Christians have the key. And we have to say that we have an obligation to further the Christian faith in these countries and we have an obligation to tell these countries: You have been receiving our money. Now you are going to treat our Christians with respect. You are not going not kill them, as they are doing and it is not publicized. They are going to be protected by you.

[ Scott ] The American government has totally abandoned the idea of upholding any standard of conduct for any other country excepting in the instance that, for instance, well, let’s take Kuwait. We went into Kuwait on the lie that Saddam was going to invade Saudi Arabia and therefore control the world oil supply. Now that was a lie. I don’t believe he had any such intention.

[ Rushdoony ] No.

[ Scott ] He went into Kuwait, because he considered Kuwait part of Iraq. It was traditionally part of Iraq and he felt that he had a right to take it back. We did not protest at the behavior of the ... of the Kuwaitis either before that particular event or afterwards and we all know that it is one of the most savage rules in the world. It is a terrible, terrible government.

[ Rushdoony ] The story of the atrocities by the Iraqis came from the Emmers family. And they were not substantiated. They were invented in order to enflame the American public.

[ Murray ] The... you know, they were talking earlier about what we give to the world in the way of aid. Just giving them money, really winds up corrupting them.

[ Scott ] Well, it is he worse thing in the world to put a man on the dole.

[ Murray ] They all hate us.

[ Scott ] Of course they hate us, because we pay no... we have no respect for their culture. I remember and ... an incident in Caracas in 1954. This fellow came over in the midst of ... of gathering and said, “Why are you against black people.”

And I said, “What are you talking about?”

He said, “Well, Little Rock.”

I said, “Oh, well, Little Rock,” I said, “is a provincial city in the center of the country, a backward place. It is not... not to be take as any... any example of our general behavior.”

He said, “Well, why doesn’t the United States help Venezuela?”

I said, “Why should it? We are not in business to take care of you.”

He turned around and said, “Thank God. At last an American who makes sense.”

And we don’t make sense in the world...

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ Scott ] ...because we don’t tell the truth.

[ Rushdoony ] Well, in the Sudan right now things are falling apart. There has been a civil war there for some time. At times Khadafy has involved himself in it. Not too long after independence they had massacred 100,000 Christians. We have no indication of what is happening now. We are rather cut off, but we know things are very bad there. Are we going to go into the Sudan next?

[ Scott ] Not to help Christians.

[ Rushdoony ] Not to help Christians, no. No more than we helped the Christian Ebos. A million of them may have died.

[ Scott ] I remember talking to the number two man on the Asian desk at the state department years ago on behalf of Goodyear. Goodyear plantations were being raided by marked Communists and there were people who were being killed. And they were Indonesians, of course. And I said, “Does the state department plan to do anything about this?” This was when {?} was in power.

And he said, “Well, {?} was not so bad. He recognizes his debts with us.”

I said, “Does he pay the interest or anything else?”

“No,” but he said, “He recognizes them.”

And he said the Goodyear people, he said, “We really can’t organize... we can’t operate on the basis of working on behalf of a single corporation.” He said, “Probably their mistake was in not granting some of the land rights and property rights in their plantation holdings with the Indonesians.”

Well, they got the plantations in 1918 when the Dutch owned the whole area and the Indonesians were not allowed to own land. And the stupidity of the comment by a man who was supposed to be an expert in the area irritated me to the point where I said, “You are probably right. And we probably would have gotten to Jerusalem sooner during the Crusades if we had used automobiles.” And that brought the conversation to a close.

And this was the southeast Asia desk, experts.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes. Yes.

[ Scott ] So you can see. We would never make good colonial powers. We don’t know enough and we haven’t been serious about the subject.

[ Rushdoony ] No. Well, our time is drawing to a close. Douglas, do you have any final statement?

[ Murray ] Yeah, I was thinking earlier, Rush...

[ Rushdoony ] Take your time.

[ Murray ] ... when you said that India was governed by 5000 British administrators. Now India has three times our population.’

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ Murray ] And we have 400,000 people running this country. There is something that we didn’t learn from the British that we had better find out about.

[ Rushdoony ] That fact, by the way, if anyone wants to confirm it is, I believe Gustaf Stolper, S T O L P E R, This Age of Fable, published in the 30s.

[ Scott ] A good book.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

Excuse me.

[ Murray ] Well, that is it. I am just... we... we... we missed something.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ Murray ] We missed learning something from the British about running a country.

[ Scott ] Isn’t it strange that the more schools we have the lower our level of education.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ M Rushdoony ] Well, just something I have been thinking of during this whole conversation and the... the name of the missionary David Livingstone came up a number of times. And a few months ago there was a special on one of the morning talk shows. Bryant Gumbel was the ... the moderator of this special on... on Africa, coincidentally. And he mentioned at some point... I just saw the... sort of the introductory program or part of the introductory program and when he got to the subject of David Livingstone he ... he... he referred to him not as a missionary, but as the explorer David Livingstone, as though his... his ... there was no benevolent motive behind what he did.

[ Murray ] No there... there is a conscious effort on the part of the media that is 100 percent to eliminate any reference to good works by Christians.

[ Scott ] And any... and anything good about Christians.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ M Rushdoony ] It is even to the point now where they... they try to cut off a conversation with an athlete after a game if they think he is going to, as many athletes make... try to make a point of, as I just, you know, thank God, you know, that I, you know, for doing, you know what he has for me or something to that effect. They will try to cut off... it off. Or if they think it is headed in that direction they will try to...

[ Murray ] Cameramen are now instructed to cut away from any athlete that goes down on one knee to, you know, to say a thank you prayer and... for having made a touchdown. And it happened in the Superbowl.

[ Rushdoony ] Well, our time is up. Thank you all for listening and God bless you.

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