From the Easy Chair

Interview with Fred Niles, Australia

Professor: Dr. R.J. Rushdoony

Subject: Conversations, Panels and Sermons

Lesson: 124-214

Genre: Speech

Track:

Dictation Name: RR161CM166

Year: 1980s and 1990s

Dr. R. J. Rushdoony, RR161CM166, Interview with Fred Niles, Australia, from the Easy Chair, excellent colloquies on various subjects.

[ Rushdoony ] This is R. J. Rushdoony, Easy Chair number 276, October the first, 1992.

Otto Scott and I are in Australia at the home of Ian Hodge. We have with us the reverend Fred Niles who is a member of the New South Wales parliament. I feel that this is a very important evening and an important tape for two reasons. First of all, although the political center of the world is still the Atlantic basin, the economic center now is very emphatically the Pacific and the adjacent countries. If California were an independent country it would alternate between fifth and sixth as the most powerful in the world because of its production. Oregon and Washington, Alaska, would rate very high. So, too, would, of course, Korea and definitely Japan. Add to that Taiwan, Singapore, Australia and New Zealand and many another state and you begin to realize how important the Pacific rim is economically. It far outweighs the Atlantic.

Now of the countries on the Pacific rim, the one with the untapped resources is Australia. There are more than a few who believe that a century from now if the right development takes place within Australia, if it has the right kind of Christian leadership, it could be the most important country in the world.

Now I believe that we have with us tonight the man who can give Australia the direction that will move it in that direction, the reverend Fred Niles who has done a great deal to give a Christian direction to things in New South Wales and Australia as a whole.

Fred, tell us about yourself and your work, because I know it will be a great source of encouragement to the people in America to know what you are doing and how successful you are.

[ Niles ] Well, thank you for the opportunity, Dr. Rushdoony. I would suppose the question of where it starts goes back a fair way. I guess, basically, to my own Christian conversion and my own commitment to Christ in a Bible believing church. That certainly laid the foundation as a young man for my life. But prior to that I had grown up with my father and my... my parents. My father is a taxi cab driver in King’s Cross which is a red light area of Australia. And he, like many other {?} was a fairly hard drinking, gambling character so that I didn’t grow up with the benefits of a Christian home. And that is why I really thank God that but for the grace of God I could have gone off in another direction, but God has led me into his service.

So I felt a very strong call to serve him as the opportunities opened. I wasn’t too sure how, but it came home to me very much that God wanted me to serve him with my whole life. In fact, my call in .... when I was about 21 years of age came at about the same time as a number of American missionaries were speared to death in South America. And I thought God was calling to me and I felt perhaps God wants me to take their place. And so my call became, very much, a life and death thing where God was saying, I believe, would you give your life for me if it meant dying for me? And I thought, well, not as a young man. I want to change the world. But finally I came to that point that if it was God’s will I would give my life to serve him thinking I might finish up being a missionary in South America or something like that, not knowing I would finish up being a missionary to the {?} natives of our state parliament who some people think of as {?} than the {?} natives of South America. So that is... that is the miracle of how God leads a person’s life and so, step by step, different doors opened. I suppose in the church as an ordained minister to do a lot of organizational work in organizing Billy Graham crusades in Sydney and other activities. And an organization which formed in Sydney a community standards organization called Festival of Life, based on the British model, a bit like Moral Majority in America to campaign more vigorously in the main stream of society on moral issues, television standards, the homosexual issue and so on. So I became the organizer for that full time in 1974. And as we were campaigning I... I started to learn about politics, because I had to go and lobby politicians. And that became a very worthwhile apprenticeship because I found out how little notice they took of us as Christians. You know, we would go and lobby them in the parliament, the premier or the prime minister and they often treated us with scorn, saying, “No one really agrees with you. It is just your own personal views. You are out of touch with modern trends and so on.”

And that was fairly discouraging, but it ... it... it became a learning experience. And so I said to our committee one day, I said, “Anything these men really appreciate is votes, is the political power. That is the only way we can really make them listen to us. We are like people outside the boxing ring. The boxing ring is the political fight and we are spectators.” I said, “Somehow we must get into the ring.”

And so we decided to get involved with the political area and nominate some Christians to stand as candidates and then to say to people, “If you want Christian principles in society, vote for our Christian candidate in voting for the party of your choice,” because we have preferential voting system. And I was going to use it as a referendum idea. We would get 50,000 votes. We could then get back to the prime minister or the premier and say, “Look. Here is 50,000 votes. That means something. These people do support us.”

But to my surprise in 1981 when I was asked to stand as a candidate I was actually elected to parliament. So that was a big shock in my life.

[ Rushdoony ] Well, you have been very active in opposing the homosexuals here in Sydney. Tell us about the recent parade and what happened.

[ Niles ] Well, some people {?} and the homosexuals have alleged that we go out of our way to attack them, but the historical fact, as you would know from the... from the United States situation is that we were facing an attack by the homosexual movement, the so-called gay liberation movement. I call it the sad bondage movement. But they launched a campaign with their agenda, their list of demands with recognition as a valid alternative lifestyle, equal rights in areas of employment and accommodation and also recognition of homosexual marriage so-called of two men and also that homosexuals could adopt children. They are all their listed demands and I said as a Christian we could never agree to that, not because of my personal attitude, but I believe it was totally opposed to God’s will. I have always strongly believed that God in the beginning created male and female and there was no intention and certainly not God’s will that there is a third sex, so-called, the homosexuals.

And that is why I believe the Bible is so strong in its condemnation of the homosexual lifestyle and, in fact, often the word is used abomination. It is an abomination in the sight of God which means something God hates. Now if God hates it, then I at least should not endorse it. I should not at least be tolerant to it. I certainly don’t want to bring back the death penalty for homosexuals, but I don’t believe our society can embrace their ideology and their lifestyle and teach it to children.

So we had a very big conflict with the homosexual groups here, because they launched what they called the homosexual and lesbian mardi gras parade to actually promote their lifestyle through the streets of Sydney in a public way in February and they have been doing this for a number of years. So we often have a prayer vigil on the night of their big parade where Christians just pray, not to physically fight the homosexual or {?} but to pray and to hope to reach them through biblical messages and tracts and so on.

But then in October ... they have their big march in October, in February. We have our march in October which we call the Jesus march. And so one of those marches we actually felt that God would judge our city unless somebody said to God we want your forgiveness. We want to intercede for you on behalf of the blasphemy and the indecency of this mardi gras parade, the homosexual parade. So we decided to march along the same route as their parade and finish up in the same place which made us finishing up in the heart of the homosexual ghetto as they have like in San Francisco and so on. There is a place where many of them live. And they regard this as their territory. So we marched into the place. They had advertised that we were coming with big posters saying, “Jesus is gay.” And the gays and family and so on, they use the word gay in all their publicity. We had Jesus is Lord and for God and the family.

And so thousands of homosexuals gathered that day and we had quite a lot of conflicts. But the actual end result, I believe, was good, because we had arranged for homosexuals to give their testimony, converted homosexuals, born again homosexuals and we had three young men that God had led me to invite to speak and they gave very powerful messages that day. So thousands of homosexuals who pecked around the truck, we had a truck as a stage in the center of the square. So the next day we marched into King’s Cross which is the red light area and had a big rally right in the heart of King’s Cross and most recently last October we had our Jericho Jesus march where the ... the homosexuals and the lesbians, the pro abortionists, Marxists, people who actually said they were proud to be Marxists. They must be the only Marxists in the world who still believe in it, because most other people are rejecting it in... at least in Europe. But they decided to come along and two or three hundred of them decided to physically wreck our Jesus march. So they ripped up our banners. Our Jesus is Lord banners were torn up. They physically were pushing the Christians around. So the police had to come and present a... sort of a line between the protest group and the Christians. And so we still had our Jesus march and... but the... the very violent protest group kept trying to stop us. So they would physically even lay down in the road on the main road and the police would say to me, “You will have to stop your march because they are... they are blocking the road way.”

And I said, “Well, we have a permit from the authorities for our Jesus march. We are not going to stop. So we will wait here until you clear the road.” So there was a standoff. Eventually the police cleared the road. The protesters would move back two or three hundred yards and put up another sort of barricade to stop the Jesus march. So we fought our way all around the city. Their march was to go right around the whole city for an hour and a half.

So it did become very much a Jericho Jesus march. The battle of Jericho was fought again in the spiritual realm, because we were praying for God to knock down the walls of prostitution, of abortion clinics, the porn shops and so on. That was the spiritual aim of the march. We weren’t going to do it physically, but spiritually we were praying for God to do that and to give us victory over these places of Satan in our ... in our city.

So we again finished up in hard pack with an hour and a half of Christian messages and testimonies and praising God with two or three hundred of these protesters jeering and interjecting all through the ... the rally, but we always planned them as an outreach rally with testimonies. So we always planned it that the non Christian will be getting something they didn't expect. So I do believe that it has always had a lot of volume, a lot of good seed is being sown in often very hard hearts that don’t normally hear the gospel.

[ Scott ] Well, what was the effect? Did you get much of a reaction from the rest of the people?

[ Niles ] The people watching it, because we marched right through the city streets, we went through the theater area, so obviously there thousands of people watching it. We also make the parade a visible parade. Our Jesus march has a big banner at the front say Jericho Jesus march, but the Christians carry banners and I think the ... in the Jesus Jericho march we actually had banners every few yards, a very large 10 foot banner which would say, “Jesus gives victory over pornography. Jesus gives victory over abortion. Jesus gives victory over homosexuality. Jesus gives victory over pornographic videos. Jesus gives victory over violence,” and so on so that the public watching it are actually getting a ... a picture, message, moving down the road with Christians holding these banners, but also singing and praising God as they do. So it is quite a powerful impact.

And because of the controversy and the violence brought by the anti group, it is always covered by the mass media. So the television reports were dramatic and they were shown all over Australia. In fact, we even had reports they were showing it on television in New Zealand.

[ Scott ] Well, that is marvelous. This... I think the... it is ironic that the lesbians and gays, as they call themselves, who have been hollering for tolerance should show themselves so intolerant toward Christians.

[ Niles ] Certainly. They... they certainly are very intolerant to Christians...

[ Scott ] ...and the rights of Christians to parade.

[ Niles ] That is right. That is why we said we believe in freedom of expression, freedom of association, freedom to march and that that protest by them, which was a violent protest, was an attack on our rights as Christians...

[ Scott ] Of course.

[ Niles ] ... to have all the things that they demanded they said we couldn’t have. In fact they said to me, one of the homosexual leaders said, “Where are you going to have your next march?”

I said, “Why do you want to know?” We said... because...

He said, “Wherever you go,” he said, “Even if you have it in the desert,” he said, “We will be there to stop you.” This is a homosexual leader.

I said,... I said to him then, I asked this question. “Where can’t we go, then? You tell me the place we can’t go if there is some no man’s land or out of bounds land.”

He said, “Why?”

I said, “That is where the next march will be.” I said, “If you... you challenge us, we will march into your headquarters if that is the ... if that is the challenge you are throwing down the gauntlet and the Christians can’t march, the Christians can’t be visible in a {?} march which has nothing to do with you. We are not directly attacking you. We are just simply expressing our views and our support for the Christian values. Then so be it. And if you claim the university is out of grounds, out of bounds, then that is where we will have our next march.”

So they walked away a bit.... now with their heads a bit puzzled wondering what kind of a person was I?

[ Scott ] Well, this has become a phenomenon all through the West that Christians are denied the rights of citizens.

[ Niles ] Well, I am sure if these people ever gained political power they would actually pass laws against us. They certainly have a ... a dictatorial totalitarian attitude. And I think regard us as, you know, very much misguided fools. So they would for our own good almost lock us up or... or take away our rights in schools and in the community.

[ Rushdoony ] Well, before we started taping I asked you if you had the kind of insanity I have encountered in the United States where someone felt that a particular kind of cockroach was an endangered species and should be protected? I think people would be interested in your answer as to what has happened here with regard to cockroaches.

[ Niles ] Well, sad to say, almost every trend in the United States is duplicated in Australia and we have exactly the same attitude with people. I call them the new agers. They have this fanatical attitude to protecting animal life, insect life and even the cock roach life. But the very same people, my main opponents in the area of abortion, I try to close the abortion clinics down. They would oppose me. I say I want to protect the unborn baby. They will oppose me, but they want to protect the cock roaches or the kangaroos or the koala bears.

And so one of the politicians is this new age man who is very pro abortion. He said we should protect the cock roaches and we should not allow them to be killed indiscriminately. They shouldn’t be killed because he has this idea, there is... there is some sort of god in each insect, like the Hindus. And so he said what we should do is have some policy of preventing their procreation, preventing them conceiving and having more cock roaches. That would be kinder than killing them. And so the media had a big headline saying, “Condoms for Cock Roaches” to stop the birth of cock roaches. And I thought that is how ridiculous these people can be. And yet they won’t see anything inconsistent. We will laugh at it because it is absolute stupidity. But they are serious. So... so they... they pass laws in our country where there are... the are very strict and heavy penalties for killing our natural foreigner such as a kangaroo, but also even heavier penalties for killing the baby of a kangaroo. Yet the same man will support the killing of unborn babies, human beings. So it looks like the human beings are left off the list of protected beings in our society now.

[ Rushdoony ] Tell us about your presentation to Queen Elizabeth and her response.

[ Niles ] Well we have a debate at the moment going on with some of our more, I suppose, radical politicians or socialistic politicians, very much against our flag. They want to get rid of the flag. They want to get rid of the queen. And, in fact, their prime minister the other day said he wanted to get rid of the senate, because the senate was impeding his legislative program. So to me it sound like he wants a dictatorship. And I did some study then on our... what I call our Christian heritage to see as a Christian should I be concerned about these issues. I mean, the flag might have no meaning. The queen may have no meaning, but as I studied it I have found, of course, our flag has on it four Christian crosses, the cross of Saint Patrick, Saint George, Saint Andrew and the southern cross that God put in the sky. I also found that in our... our constitutional monarchy there is... in the... in the... in the modern constitutional monarchy there is a great deal of Christian heritage which comes from the Puritan period of the reformation where the coronation service was changed to include the words that he queen or her predecessors as kings and so on could not become king of queen of Great Britain and Australia unless they made an oath and the oath was that I promise to uphold the laws of God and the true profession of the gospel as well as justice and so on.

And I thought, well, if the queen makes that kind of promise then I can see some value in her role that we have God as sovereign and under... under God we have the queen as an earthly leader and under her our elected parliamentarian, our elected parliament, like your congress.

So I gave the queen a, what I call an address of loyalty where I said to her, “I am... I am very pleased to welcome you here to Australia here in Frederick this year and also to encourage you in your upholding of those words of your oath.” And I didn’t know whether I would have the opportunity to actually present it to her personally, but I believe by one of God’s little miracles I was face to face with the queen and actually had the opportunity. I was introduced to her to present her with the address of loyalty.

And a few cynical journalists nearby said, “What did you give her?”

And I said, “I gave her this address of loyalty.”

And they said, “Oh, she won’t even look at that. And she will throw it away.”

And that very day a letter was typed and sent to me from the Queen on Buckingham Palace letterhead thanking me for that address of loyalty and particularly said, “I expressly thank you for the sentiments expressed in your writing.”

So I took that to mean she was referring back to that oath that she had made that she would, in spite of all the domestic problems they are having in the royal family with they children... children, which is not her fault, but certainly she is having problems, that she herself personally would do all she could to uphold that oath that she took. So I felt that was some positive part of our Christian heritage here in Australia.

[ Scott ] The reverend David Mitchell told me the other day that the Australian Supreme Court issued an opinion saying that Australia is a Christian country.

[ Niles ] Well, there have been a number of decisions like that, because we have had other politicians or our political leaders of the radical left have tried to have Australia declared a non Christian country and a Socialist country or even a Pagan country and have ... they have even advised the United Nations not to list Australia in the category of Christian nations. And so we have been fighting that to get that quite clear in the United Nations that we are a Christian country. We do have a Christian heritage. We do have Christian traditions and also still all of our parliaments, like your congress on the state level and the federal level still start with prayer and the Lord’s prayer which you can’t get more Christian than the Lord’s prayer and, to me, that is part of our heritage.

Now obviously not all politicians are Christians. Neither would everyone in Australia be a convert or be attending church, but it is still our heritage and that is what I am seeking to address in my campaign, but also hope and pray more and more non believers will become believers as well. We have an evangelistic role as well, but we should not be discouraged by the fact that there are Atheists or Humanists in our society or Communists to say, “Well, we are no longer a Christian nation.” They have to recognize the fact that they live in a Christian nation.

[ Rushdoony ] In 1983 I was asked to come and take part in a Christian school trial her in Sydney. And at the time in meeting with the queen’s counsel I said that the seal and the coinage, older coinage of Australia tells you the foundation of the country is in the grace of God. And the older coinage would have the image of the queen and then Queen Elizabeth, deo gratia. And then it was shorted to d g and now it is gone.

[ Niles ] That is I told you of the fight.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes. And, of course, the queen’s counsel who had never thought of it realized that was what was behind the judge and the court where he was holding the trial.

[ Niles ] It is still on the wall, yes.

[ Rushdoony ] It is still on the wall, yes. So the foundation of the Australian constitution is that it is a constitutional monarchy under a queen who personally and whose government as represented by a parliament exists under and by the grace of God.

[ Niles ] Yes.

[ Rushdoony ] So that is the constitutional foundation of this country.

[ Niles ] It is very true. Just one quick comment. The previous prime minister, Mr. Whitcomb said to the queen on one occasion, they had got rid of the words defender of the faith. He said, “Let’s remove the words by grace of God.” He said this is... he supposed to have said this to the queen herself. Let’s remove the words by the grace of God. And the queen turned back to the prime minister and said, “But that is why I am here.”

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ Niles ] That is why I am here. And I thought that was the {?} the right, true reply.

[ Rushdoony ] Excellent. I am very glad to hear that.

Fred, could you tell us more about the words grace of God?

[ Niles ] Well when the prime minister Mr. Whitcomb said to the queen that those words should be removed, they were no longer necessary, the queen is reported as saying to the prime minster, “But that is why I am here, by the grace of God.” And that apparently took the words out of his stocking from progressing any further with that argument. It took the wind out of his sails and the matter was dropped. So all our government documents still have on them by the grace of God, the queen, and also have the words God save the queen printed on the bottom. And also in our constitution we still have the words that all our states come together to form the commonwealth humbly rely upon the blessings of almighty God. That is the only words of the Australian constitution. So either way you can go our documents and our parliamentary procedures and prayers in parliament, there is a tremendous amount of Christian witness and heritage.

[ Scott ] Fred, does ... have you ever analyzed the attitudes or the motives of these people who want to destroy your culture? Do they ever provide any reason and any alternative?

[ Niles ] Well, some that have been more aggressive have openly stated that they wanted to remove our Judeo Christian value system and replace it with a humanistic one. That was action. One of our labor party attorney generals who became one of the judges in our supreme court or high court, we call it. Ronald Murphy, when he died they had a funeral service and over his grave the eulogy said of this man , “Never had one man done so much to remove the Judeo Christian ethic from Australia and replace it with a Humanist ethic.” That was said over his grave. And that man had introduced laws to legalize pornography, had brought in a 12 month easy divorce law called a so called family law act which was anti family. So a whole lot of laws were brought in which I and other Christians, we saw these as a direct attack on our Christian faith and our Christian value system. But often we could not get the churches to see that. Church leaders would feel it is a political issue.

I said, “This issue cuts at the very foundations of our Christian faith and value system. It cuts an the very foundation of the family and the churches should get involved.”

They said, “We don’t get involved with politics.”

I said, “These men are introducing anti Christian laws. When will the church finally stand up and say something, even criticize them? These men are introducing anti Christian laws. When will the church finally stand up and say something, even criticize them?” But on... on many cases I was just met with silence or even in some cases by liberal churchmen agreement, because they had no biblical authority so they went along with the Humanist politicians.

[ Rushdoony ] About 35 years ago I was a pastor in one community where there was a small but very militant group of Atheists. And one of their top officials was a man who had made it clear that while he did not believe in heaven or hell, he would rather be in hell than with Christians in any after life.

He died and they had a funeral service for him. And the city gained a great deal of delight and amusement over the fact that the man presiding at the funeral service was an officer in the fire department.

[ Niles ] You have got the fires of hell.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ Niles ] Well, I have got one just as good as that. When that chap died, Lionel Murphy, and some of my supporters heard the announcement and they just said to me, “Fred, you heard the news?”

I said, “What?”

They said, “Lionel Murphy is no longer an Atheist.”

I said, “What? Has he been converted?”

They said, “No, he just died.”

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ Niles ] So God has the last word.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes, he does. Tell us about your festival of light movement.

[ Niles ] Well, we are, Rush, two movements have grown out of our activities in Australia. One is the Australian federal of festival of life community standards organizations which is very much like what most of you.... Moral Majority in America, an organization, a crusading organization on moral issues in which I am still the honorary national coordinator. And we have offices in each state and members in each state and affiliated churches in each state. Out of that has grown a separate organization that is like a sister organization which we have name called to Australia, calling Australia back to God, back to the Bible, back to the family, which is a political organization which nominates candidates for the election. So stuck the elections under the banner of call it Australia and the festival of light stays out of the political area. Again, I think same as in America where you become a registered political party. So call it Australia is specifically in its objectives a political party which its number one objective is nominate Christian candidates who will promote the Judeo Christian ethic in our society and so on. And the festival of light is the morals crusading organization which is involved in the day to battle on television standards and obscene programs, pornography, prostitution, homosexuality and so on. But they overlap in the campaigning, of course.

So in the ... in the festival of light we mainly try to influence public opinion. We make one of our main aims to mobilize wholesome public opinion and action for purity, love and family life. So to do that we try to promote with its Jesus marches or we visit or we bring our overseas speakers who are usually well known and will get a lot of media coverage. So over the years we try to have one a year. We have had people come after Australia like Mary Whitehouse has been there three times, three different years. We have had Malcolm Muggeridge come out one year. We have had Pat Boone come out and had him involved in this area of family life. We have had speakers from Denmark, Christian leaders from Denmark. We have had professor {?} a very famous Christian leader from New Zealand who has since died. We have had a range of people who took different issues with maybe television standards or we had a doctor Harden Jones once from California, Berkeley University. He was a very strong opponent of marijuana. So we had sort of a campaign dealing with that question of not to legalize marijuana in our state, which we succeeded in blocking moves to legalize it.

So the... the festival of light has been using the mass media and Bible study groups and action groups in local churches. The call it Australia is.... is a direct political organization which now, of course, takes a great deal of my time, because I am a member of parliament and I am the leader of the call it Australia organization in the parliament.

So for a number of years we were like watch dogs or a conscience in the parliament the prophetic voice. And responding to government legislation. But from 1988 we felt the need for us to initiate legislation. So now we have initiated 12 bills which have progressively been debated and either passed or defeated. For example, we had a very big debate last year on a bill to close the abortion clinics, not the hospitals, but the actual money making clinics where doctors were becoming wealthy from becoming babies. And so we directly targeted them, but that bill after an intense debate in parliament, one of the most ferocious debates in parliament on the pro life issue and protests outside of parliament both by pro life and... and abortion groups. The bill was defeated. And we only had seven members of parliament, including my wife and I who voted for it.

Some men who promised they would vote for it when the vote came wouldn’t and were cowards even though some of them professed to be Christians. I said they didn’t want to vote for it.

We had another bill to reduce the promotion of cigarettes in sporting activities that involved children and so on and that bill, to my surprise was passed. And so I have actually had one bill pass which was a health bill, which I was pleased to do that. We... the other bills include bills to close down or prevent the homosexual mardi gras parade. Another one is to give just compensation to the innocent victims of AIDS, that is the people who are hemophiliacs who got AIDS through blood products and other adults and children who got blood... AIDS through contaminated blood transfusions which, I believe, we have for the ration of our population, we have more in Australia in that category than America. We have hundreds of innocent victims.

I heard only last night that a man whose son died of AIDS, a hemophiliac, his boy, he said all the hemophiliacs in Australia will eventually die. They have all been infected with the AIDS virus because the doctors just wouldn’t believe it could be transmitted by the blood and ignored evidence. We provide the evidence and they rejected. So that is a very emotional bill. And my wife and I have a number of friends who are dying of AIDS who got it through blood transfusions, quite a few Christians, in fact, have been infected with AIDS. That is why.

Then we have another bill called the family impact bill or family commission impact bill. That is we are putting up to parliament that no bill should be passed, no law should be passed by parliament until we have a family impact study in the same way as they have an environmental impact study on how it will affect the air, the trees, the creeks. Ours said families are more important than trees and creeks, but no one says whether a legislation will damage or make it more difficult for parents or for families. So that is a very important bill which we have ... we are progressively moving through the parliament.

So that is a sort of positive things that we are doing as well as trying to remove nude bathing from beaches and remove pornographic publications from news agents and so on. There is a lot of those issues which never go away.

[ Scott ] What about... what about the educational system?

[ Niles ] Well, we are very much involved in the education system in that I have been the main spokesman for the Christian schools in our state and nation, in fact, because there have been very aggressive efforts by anti Christian politicians to actually close down the Christian schools and at least restrict their opening so that they cannot expand or bring in a rule that where there is state school within a radius of that area that no Christian school can open. They have brought all these little, sort of trick laws in, which in the... the effect of those laws to virtually make it impossible for a Christian school to start.

So we have been able to defeat those efforts so the Christian schools are very strong in Australia and growing. We have also been very strong supporters of the home school movement. Again, there were attempts to crush that movement and I thank God that we succeeded in getting that written into the new law, our education law. And it is mushrooming that more and more parents and Ian and his wife here have home schooling for their children. And it is very successful and many of our supporters as a reaction to the immoral and Humanistic teaching in the state schools have withdrawn their children, either into Christian schools. But our keenest work is they are doing home schooling. And that is a lot of ... big in the city as well as a lot of famers.

Now having their three or four sons being taught in the home and the schooling is better than what they would have got in the state school system. So the pressures are still on, though, to crush the school, the Christian schools and to stop home schooling. In fact, the more successful they are, of course, the more the enemy will try to restrict them and if they can to close them down.

And so I also campaigned, though, that if our state school should uphold Christian principles. And I have a {?} in parliament which is state and I know it annoys my opponents. I say every state school a Christian school, every state school a Christian school. I said, you made them humanistic. I want them to be Christian. So it is either or the other. Don’t pretend that our schools are neutral. They are not neutral. You are promoting another ideology where as our schools, our state schools, our government schools in which in this state we have a million children in state schools. We have one of the biggest education systems probably in the world under the control of one department, 70,000 teachers and a million children. And ... and a radical union who control the 70,000 teachers. They promote homosexuality and support permissive material and pornography and so on. They are very opposed to censorship, they say, which means they accept pornography.

So we do still have the legal right in our state for clergy or their representatives to actually go into the schools once a week of an hour and teach the children of their own religion. So a Baptist minister can go into our state government schools and actually teach Baptist children, but they have to {?} be volunteer to go to his class or an Anglican minister. An Episcopalian can teach Anglican children or Church of Christ, Church of Christ children and so on. Of course that has been expanded now that Muslims can also teach Muslim children under the same rule. We have to accept that. But at least the door is open still for Christians to go into the state school system and even though there were attempts as late as 88, 1988 to stop that and close that opportunity. We fought to keep it open and that is still in our state school system.

The reason was this because originally all our schools were Christian schools. The churches started the schools in Australia and hand them over to the state and so the compromise was we will let the state take over the schools providing the church has access to the children one hour a day, one our a day. That eventually became one hour a week and they have tried to cut that out as well. But we still have the one hour a week with access to the schools.

There is very little other Christian teaching in the schools. We have tried to promote Bible teaching, not theological teaching, but straight Bible teaching in the schools And some schools do that in the lower age groups, the primary school age groups.

[ Rushdoony ] I believe you met one of our staff members a while back, Samuel Blumenfeld.

[ Niles ] Yes. And I did meet him but we campaigned together.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ Niles ] Right... right across New South Wales and Queensland and had a tremendous response, because, again, we have the same problem as America with al the state school education children are coming out of school and they can’t read. They just can’t read. The literacy level is actually going down with more children and ... and ... and more modern schools and all modern methods of education. But the end product is worse.

And I was able to get him into a conference with our minister of education in this state and it was a lady, Mrs. Chadwick. And he had quite a... made quite an impression on her and we have been giving her more and more material and she has given us a verbal agreement that the methods that he was promoting will be still retained in the schools if there be sort of two approaches, but not just the one which would ignore his views, but his views will be recognized and, I am sure, will be still embodied in the English teaching in our state schools. So it had a very positive impact, his visit.

[ Voice ] Fred, why don’t you tell us the results of the investigation that you did on the performance of Christian school children in this state.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ Voice ] In... in response to the opposition that was coming, especially out of the parliament towards Christian schools and Christians home schools in this state.

[ Niles ] Yes, well prior to the 1988 election the labor government, which was a socialistic government under pressure from their more extreme Atheist members, mounted a campaign to literally phase Christian schools down and actually had a hit list of the first 14 that would be closed down. And so they introduced a bill that effect they were arguing that the Christian schools should be closed down because their teachers weren’t qualified, the children were not being educated and they were using chicken sheds for schools. All of that was false, but it was very emotive propaganda in the newspapers.

So I then got the Christian schools to collect from the computer material the records of the students that had gone through the Christian schools. I said, “I want to know how many children have graduated and what they are doing now. I also want to know how many teachers you have and what are their qualifications and so on.”

And I found... and I... I gave this material in parliament to the politicians and it... and it shut them up and also led to a... an election that followed just after that where that government was thrown out of parliament and I think that education issue was one of the key issues that changed the government, that that government was actually voted out of office when... when we revealed their plans and the false things they were saying. And I found out that the Christian teachers from the Christian schools were more highly qualified, had more degrees and were better trained as teachers than the state school teachers on the average. I also found to my surprise and the ... and the surprise of the Christian school movement that out of all the graduates, we found not one of those children, students was unemployed. Every one had a job or was going on to further education at the university or in a hospital as a nurse and so on. Not one was on the unemployment list which was {?} we have one million people unemployed out of 70 million population. It is almost impossible to say that that not one of those children be unemployed {?}, but there wasn’t one.

And... and a guy in their educational ability was exceeded that of the state schools so that companies where the Christian schools were operating were literally truthfully writing to the principals of those Christian schools saying, “We have vacancies coming up at the end of the year. Make certain you send to us your graduates. We will hold the vacancies for your students, because we are so pleased with the previous graduates because of their attitude towards their work, they are industrious, they have a work ethic. They are honest and trustworthy, had a good presentation, were able to dress, were able to speak, were able to read, et cetera.” So that is why these Christian school graduates were going into positions where there would be other students in that same district that these companies would not employ because they would simply be a liability on the company. The company would be carrying that person without any value to the company.

So I... I think that those records speak immensely and prove the value of... of the Christian way, not just the Christian teaching, but I believe of when the Christian faith and the Christian ethic and the Christian values of the Bible are applied, they produce good fruit. Good seed produces good fruit. Evil seed, which we see so often in our state schools, produces evil fruit.

[ Rushdoony ] Well, I think what you have said is very, very important and very encouraging. I think many of our American listeners will wish that you were in the States and they could run you for Congress. How have the other parties reacted to what you are doing?

[ Niles ] Well, there is a range of attitudes, I suppose. There are some ... well, during that Christian school debate, when they were trying to close the Christian schools, one of my main opponents completely lost their temper, a socialist lady, and screamed out, “You are the most dangerous man in ...”

So I thought that was some sort of compliment.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes. I was complimented like that once.

[ Niles ] So I... it is one of the {?} the politicians think of it. That is... that is how... and sometimes I am abused up front. Sometimes I am called names. I remember one day the leader of the ... the opposition, the labor party attacked me in the parliament. He was trying to discredit me and he was accusing me of being a hypocrite and I suppose for a Christian that is the worst criticism. And he was hurting me and even now I try not... I try to have a thick skin, but I... I. one thing I can’t have with is being called a hypocrite. I want to believe I am doing God’s will and I am doing it sincerely. And as we walked out of the parliament he finished up walking beside me and he said, this same man said to me, “Fred, you look a bit upset.”

I said, “Well, wouldn’t you be upset if I said those things to you that you have just been saying to me?”

And this leader of this other party, the labor party, put his arm around me and said, “Fred, there is nothing personal. That is politics.”

[ Rushdoony ] When you showed me the chambers of parliament the other day you pointed out that it had once been a church. I think it is very fitting that it should be so. It was once eth house of the Lord. And we hope and pray that as a result of your efforts parliament again will be the house of the Lord.

[ Niles ] Well, I certainly agree with that. I was very impressed when I found out the building was a church. I thought it was a jail, but I checked historically that it was a church and I believe the Lord prepared a house for me before I was elected. And my seat became my pulpit and my parish became the members of parliament.

But I also agree with you that Romans 13 teaches that the government is God’s servant.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes.

[ Niles ] And that all the members of parliament—and I remind them of this every day—I say we are here not as servants to the parties, but we are here as servants of God. God is sovereign. We should be seeking to do what he is doing. We should pray in this way with regard to God and to direct us every day and seek to do his will, to obey God and that means policies that would then be for the true welfare of the people. Because God knows what is best for his creation.

[ Rushdoony ] Yes. Well, thank you very, very much.

Well, our time is up. Thank you all for listening and God bless you.

[ Voice ] Authorized by the Chalcedon Foundation. Archived by the Mount Olive Tape Library. Digitized by ChristRules.com.