From the Easy Chair

Anatoliy Golitsyn: Communist Strategy of Deception, Misinformation

Professor: Dr. R.J. Rushdoony

Subject: Conversations, Panels and Sermons

Lesson: 67-214

Genre: Speech

Track:

Dictation Name: RR161BH111

Year: 1980s and 1990s

Dr. R. J. Rushdoony, RR161BH111, Anatoliy Golitsyn: Communist Strategy of Deception, Misinformation from the Easy Chair, excellent colloquies on various subjects.

[Rushdoony] This is R. J. Rushdoony, Easy Chair number 219, June five, 1990.

This evening Otto Scott and I are going to discuss the situation in the Marxist countries. As a springboard to our discussion we will begin by citing Anitoliy Golitsyn’s book of 1984, New Lies for Old: The Communist Strategy of Deception and Disinformation. This book of six years ago is a startling book because it describes exactly what Gorbachev has since done. It is described not as a step towards freedom, but disinformation, of disarming the West insofar as their goals and intensions are concerned. Golitsyn predicted what has since happened and, of course, the sad fact is that Golitsyn’s book is now bypassed and what he had to say virtually forgotten in most of the quotes. And we are acting as though a brave new world is about to dawn. This, in spite of the fact that none of the leaders have disavowed Communism. In fact, Gorbachev has lahsed out at any criticism of Lenin and indicated that he is simply following in Lenin’s footsteps which is true because Lenin began the new economic policy which supposedly was turning the Soviet Union back into Capitalism and freedom.

Moreover, we have Vaclav Havel in Czechoslovakia, or rather... yes, in Czechoslovakia hailed as a great lover of freedom, although he has made it clear that he has no intention of departing from what he calls democratic Socialism. And this does not include the dismantling of the secret police or anything else.

We should have known what Havel was immediately, because one of the first persons to fly there to congratulate him was Jane Fonda. We could go around the various central European countries and cite the deception in each of them. Walesa is hardly a champion of freedom. He is a Marxist and he has been used to delude us into believing that he represents freedom.

Well, with that general introduction, Otto, would you like to make a general statement about Golitsyn’s thesis and anything further?

[Scott] Well, Golitsyn’s book is pretty scary. I just recently read it, although I heard references to it. So many books have come out from so many defectors and refugees that one has a tenendecy to assume that they are all going to tell you the same things about what is so terrible under the Communist regime, the labor camps, the injustices and so forth. So this one came out and I didn’t pick it up. But I recently borrowed a copy and I have read it. The first thing in the introduction, I think, that Golitsyn has to say is extremely interesting, because he says that when he defected from the KGB, from ... or from the diplomatic corps of the Soviet Union, the foreign service, that he told all he knew to the American and British intelligence services and they did not believe him. They did not believe him. And he obtained four English and American diplomats to help him write this book in English in order to tell the English speaking world what he knew. He incidentally as made an honorary commander of the order of the British Empire by the British and he is, of course, an American citizen, but he is living today under a new name with a new identity under the protected witness program.

Nor ordinarily if a man tells you a series of startling predictions and they begin to fall into place, they begin to come true, you would reevaluate your original skepticism. But instead of that, what Golitsyn has had to say has been treated as though it was not said. Our entire government, state department, the White House, Congress and everybody else has moved in a direction that Golitsyn told us is an acceptance of a gigantic international fraud of such subtley, such magnitude as to command awe, really a gigantic hoax.

[Rushdoony] Yes. Well, the interesting thing is—and I do remember reading so much about Golitsyn at the time of his defection—he was treated very shabbily. He was treated as though he were a plant that somehow he had defected only to delude us, because what he made clear was there was a monolithic character to the Soviet hierarchy, that there was no internal dissension, that their sources of information were really sources of disinformation and that they were not taking seriously the Soviet threat nor the Soviet power.

[Scott] Well, the same thing about disinformation has been said ever since he arrived here by Lev {?}. Lev {?} who is now a columnist for the much despisted New York Tribune, a rather good little newspaper, has persistently scorned the New York Times and the CIA and the state department and the American government in general for accepting any information that appears under official Soviet auspices. He says that it is a flat, utter, sin quin non that they always disinform. They never inform. Secrecy from the time of {?}, remember, the Frenchman who went there in the 1830s.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Scott] Secrecy has been the most single salient feature of the Russian character.

[Rushdoony] Well, I have referred to this on other occasions, but I think it is worth citing again. I can recall as a student having professors treat with contempt and scorn anyone who thought Stalin was anything but a good Russian whose concern was basically conservative.

[Scott] Well, we... we remember Uncle Joe.

[Rushdoony] Yes. Harry Truman calling him Uncle Joe, a prisoner in the Kremlin. Well, Stalin was ostensibly a conservative who was going to lead Russia back into traditional patterns because he had ousted Trotsky who was the radical, who was for world Comunism. Of course, I remember before that reading when I was in high school books by Maurice {?}.

[Scott] Oh, yes.

[Rushdoony] In which Lenin came out as a saint, a saint who loved the common man and all the stories about him being for the terror and instituting it were ostensibly false.

[Scott] Indus was an academic saint himself. He was carried around by every professor, I guess, in the country.

[Rushdoony] Yes. And Walter Durante succeeded him as the great apologist and many others. And, of course, then according to Golitsyn, Khrushchev came along to delude us further. He had a job to do. He did it. He was succeeded by Brezhnev and those who are familiar with Russia say that Brezhnev made Stalin look like a piker he was so vicious and brutal. And yet we don’t hear about that.

So we have had perestroika and glastnost again and again, six or seven times and we refuse to learn the reality of what the Soviet Union is and what the Marxists are.

[Scott] Well, there are some very strange paradoxical attitudes regarding the USSR. I received a letter the other day from a lawyer in Demoines, Iowa and he enclosed a copy of a letter that he had sent to Senator Grassley of Iowa saying to the Senator since the Soviet Union has admitted that its minions murderd 5000 Polish officers and 11,000 Polish enlisted men and buried them in a mass unmarked grave in the {?} since they have admitted that, he said, when will President Bush ask President Gorbachev when those criminals will be brought to trial and when those families will be paid reparations.

Now not a single person in the Soviet Union has been brought to trial for any crime against anybody and yet the people who keep crying never again have overlooked all those millions of Soviet dead.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Scott] This is an amazing thing to overlook. And the whole American nation is overlooking it today.

[Rushdoony] And we are told that truth is healing the wounds by the Polish president with regard to the cutting and ...

[Scott] That is by Jareselski.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Scott] Now remember what Golitsyn said about Jareselski.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Scott] He said that Jareselski was part of the planning committee that decided that a new trade union movement was needed in Poland. But they said we cannot appear to sponsor one. So they used ...

[Rushdoony] Walesa.

[Scott] Walesa and others to set up a trade union movement which, when it first appeared, attracted between eight and 10 million Polish working people. And then in short order they discovered that the people at the top, including Walesa were all insstrumetns of the KGB of the oppressors. So the eight to 10 million fell away and were replaced by one million party members. And that is the core of Solidarity today.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Scott] Jareselski was in on it from the beginning. The whole business of Solidarity is a gigantic fraud and I remember talking to an individual who went over to Warsaw and who did visit Walesa and who came back shcokd. He said, “He is an absolute Socialist. He is not one of us at all.”

[Rushdoony] Yes, the leaders in all the central European countries of the new regimes have made it clear that they are Socialists. They have no desire to dismantle Marxism and its apparatus in their countries. All they talk about is Democratic Socialism. But the elections are rigged as in Romania and we are expected to believe that a new order has arisen.

[Scott] Well, Golitsyn said the basic purpose of the new international which is secret, but is in place, is to break up NATO, to split the West and to isolate the United States.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Scott] Now, of course, that is moving very rapidly.

[Rushdoony] Well, we are cooperating with it through and through.

[Scott] Well, the West Germans have just decided to agree to give the Soviet Union 300 million dollars a year to support Soviet troops in the new unified Germany.

[Rushdoony] I will... I will correct that, Otto.

[Scott] Yes.

[Rushdoony] West German Chancellor Helmut Kohl has agreed to negotiations with Moscow to pay at least 450 million a year of the cost of Soviet troop deployments in a unified Germany for at least five years. This means 17 divisions and since a Soviet division ranges from 10 to 12,500 troops this means perhaps 200,000 or close to it. And this will be in the united Germany. And yet we are quibbling all the while in the negotiations which just took place this past week about the united Germany being in NATO.

[Scott] Well, of course, with Soviet troops sitting in there, that would mean Soviet troops get into NATO.

[Rushdoony] Yes. Now what kind of fools do we have in Washington or, better, what kind of knaves who will not face up to the fact that the united German will now be a Soviet satellite.

[Scott] Well, of course, German... this was the price that the Germans have paid or are paying for unification. Unification is to unify with the Soviets. That is what it boils down to. And the Soviets, being Soviets, will not even take their troops out. They will keep their troops there just to make sure.

In the meantime we are disarming. Our Pentagon is being cut back. I understand from some source I read recently that they are now talking, the United States is now talking about reducing the arms... the army itself to 500,000 men. Nuclear ... the nuclear plants, of course, are under great pressure, but the Soviets are arming faster than ever.

Now when you have this problem of a man who is sharpening his sword right in front of you, it is odd that we don’t ask them why they are arming. In history I have never heard of a great power arming to the teeth for no purpose.

[Rushdoony] Yes. Well, the ironic fact is that the Soviet Union has serious internal problems, primarily with food. And instead of using the present crisis to bring them to yield, we are helping them. Meanwhile Gorbachev has increased his personal power by increasing his riot control troops from 100,000 to 350,000. They are answerable directly to Gorbachev. So we meanwhile are reducing armament and he is increasing armament.

I have in my hand a list of all the various kinds of armament. For example, sea launched cruise missiles, nuclear armed. We have three, the Soviets 220. We have no modern reload ICBM warheads including SS-16s and SS-20s. The Soviet Union has 9300. And, again and again, in reserve strategic nuclear forces we are zero and the Soviet Union is way up there in its armament. Whether you look at anti nuclear strategic defenses, air defense, radar, tactical nuclear forces, chemical and biological forces, conventional forces, space forces, strategic weapons, ICBM warheads and so on...

[Scott] Well, this brings up... go ahead, sorry.

[Rushdoony] Yes. In one category after another, we are way behind the Soviets or have zero weapons.

[Scott] Well, a superpower that cannot or will not fight, of course, is not a super power. It is not even a power. But what you said about the Soviet internal problems sparks a recollection.

In the history of World War II the Germans were amazed to discover. They thought they had pretty well penetrated Soviet intelligence and that they had a good idea of its military capacity. They estimated, for instance, that the Soviets had about 12,000 tanks which, in those days, was a lot of tanks. But they destroyed 40,000 and the tanks were still coming. They ... I don’t know how many armies they destroyed and the armies kept coming. During World War II the Soviets had more arms, more guns, more planes, more tanks, more men than all the Alllies put together and all through the war we were working our factories overtime to ship the material that Stalin convinced Roosevelt we needed, he needed.

The same thing is true according to Golitsyn on the Soviet food situation. He says they have stockpiled oil and wheat beyond measure.

[Rushdoony] For the armed forces. The people don't get it.

[Scott] The people don’t matter. This is awfully for decent people to understand that the longest period in hiostry so far in recorded history has been under despotism where the people did not matter, where only the army and the rulers mattered. They see absolutely nothing wrong with carrying the human race back 10,000 years to that sort of a situation.

[Rushdoony] I agree. Stalin saw nothing wrong in starving six million people in the Urkaine deliberately, deliberately moving in and seizeing all the food and staving them to death. So the people don’t matter. But all the same, they do have internal problems. They are going to solve them as they have in the past, by sacrificing their people.

[Scott] By terror.

[Rushdoony] And we are going to do nothing to alter the situation when the power is in our hands.

[Scott] Well, Mr. Hoover went to his death without ever realizing that of all Americans he was the one most responsible for saving Lenin.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Scott] For saving the Bolshviks.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Scott] WIth his food problem. And, of course, what can you say? It as a Christian and wonderful thing to feed those people, but it is supported and it encouraged and enabled the devil to live.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Scott] It is very difficult to know when you are doing good in this world, very difficult.

A great many Americans today feel terribly good about the idea that there will not be a war. That is what Chamberlain thought.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Scott] And we are dealing wit people much smarter than Adolf Hitler. We are dealing with people who are seduced, our universities and our press, for years, our theater. Right now, I understand, Hollywood is tooling up to produce pro Soviet films.

[Rushdoony] That doesn't surprise me at all, because they have always been pro Soviet.

[Scott] But now all the way.

[Rushdoony] Yes. All the way. Well, we have had the news just recently that Romania’s leaders refuse to have any investigation of the vote there which the people were convinced was fraudulent.

[Scott] Did you read what Howie Philips had to say about it?

[Rushdoony] Yes. I have it here. You... why don’t you read it?

[Scott] Well, we both had it. Howie was over there as an election observer and he spoke to a crowd of 100,000 people. And he says... you better read yours, because I have a different one. He was talking, if I remember correctly, about people being beaten, about force, about terror, about one party tactics. He said that Armand Hammer’s man was over thee and saw nothing wrong. Other American observers were over there saying, “Isn’t it wonderful? They are having elections.” This is very similar, you know, to what happened in Nicaragua when Ortega’s thugs beat people up and stole all kinds of votes and even then weren’t able to win. But in Romania there was no opposition party.

[Rushdoony] No. No, this is what he wrote, Howard Philips. “In the polling places which I personally visited, the secret ballot was by no means assured as official election officers chosen by the NSF in clear view of all took ballots from the hands of voters to inspect them before placing them in envelopes which they then deposted in the ballot box. In a country where going against the government can cost you your home, your job, your freedom or even your life, it takes unusual courage for an impoverished peasant to risk voting against the NSF in such circumstances. Illiteracy is widespread in many areas of Romania where the Communist party apparatus has remained firmly in control. Accordingtly, voters were frequently assisted by NSF designated election officials. There were long lines to vote in most polling places. And each of which only four voting booths were available to accommodate many hundreds of waiting voters. The paper ballots were magazine size in pagination and content. One cab driver... driver told me he had tried four times to vote, but that on each occasion had been forced to give up after endless delays. One mayor with whom I visited was threatned with death if he would not yield power back to the front after election day, even though his position was not contested on the ballot. The mayor had taken office shortly after Ceausescu’s fall.

“Former New Mexico GOP Senator Harrison Schmidt in a news conference which I attended displayed an actual set of ballots he had been inadvertently handed by election officials at a poll he had visited. The ballots were pre stamped in favor of the NSF, voted ink stamps were used to indicate party and candidate preferences.”

Well, it goes on that way. And yet the media had nothing to say about this.

[Scott] No reportage whatever...

[Rushdoony] No.

[Scott] Although the reporters were there.

[Rushdoony] Yes. They had no desire to tell the truth.

[Scott] Well, worse than that, they are coving up for liess.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Scott] Now that means that Romania is still in the hands of Communists.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Scott] Poland is still in the hand of Communists.

[Rushdoony] And Czechoslovakia and Hungary...

[Scott] And Golitsyn feels that Yugoslavia is another made up case.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Scott] But when we continue in the second segment, I think we ought to talk about the international program that Golitsyn predicted.

[Rushdoony] Yes, I think we should. There is so much in Golitsyn. I understand his book is going to be made available again. Perhaps by this time it has been.

[Scott] No. They are talking about a paper back edition.

[Rushdoony] Well, it will not be easy to get in most stores.

[Scott] I have yet to see a review.

[Rushdoony] Very true. I don’t recall seeing it reviewed.

[Scott] And that is rather remarkable. It is like... it is almost as remarkable as the silence about Solzenitzen.

[Rushdoony] Yes. A non person now.

Well, Otto, why don’t you start on the other aspect of Golitsyn’s work.

[Scott] Well, he talks about he international policy that was developed at the secret policy meetings. And, of course he makes a point. He stresses the point that all the policies of the Soviet Union are secret. What he says they decided to do, and a long time back was to make China the bait. Prentend to pull away from China and that would leave China as an attractive bait for the Americans and the idea was to pull the Americans into supporting China, into feeding their techncology to China, into giving China arms and in time, he said, to even promote China on an international level so that there would be a Chinese block that would presumably contend against the Soviet block. And they called it the scissors strategy in which China would head up one end of the scissors and the Kremlin the other end. And then at a certain point in the future the two scissors would come together.

[Rushdoony] Yes. Yes. Several chapters on that. Devastating chapters. The sad fact is that I question whether you could say that our China policy and our Soviet policy are based on illusions. I think we have the will to be a party to this massive deception of the people of this coutnry and of the world.

[Scott] Well, I think you are right, but I do think this psychology here is somewhat similar to a man who subconsciously knows that his wife is unfaithful, but who doesn’t want to consciously admit it, because if he has to admit it he will have to do something about it. I think that the leaders of the United States are aware in their heart of the situation and lack the courage to confront it.

[Rushdoony] Well, one thing that keeps coming back to me is an argument I had after a meeting in the 60s in Washington, DC. A man I had the discussion with was in the treasury department. He was far to the left. And he ridiculed everything I had to say and especially because at that time we had just gone off silver not too long before or about that time and I felt the implications were far reaching, that gold was going to go up. He was insistent that it would perhaps drop from 35 to six dollars and would be useful only for filling teeth. And he was quite vehement on these things.

Well, the hour was getting late and he would not give up. He wanted me to admit he was right.

But providentially his wife became annoyed that the hour was getting late and she knocked his argument out of the running entirely. She said very saracastically, “My husband thinks so little of gold that he used his status, got diplomatic imunity and flew to Europe and brought back a lot of gold.”

The man was not in the least embarrassed. He laughed. And he said it was just an insurance policy. But what came through loud and clear was his hatred of a world where anything that was godly could triumph, where God’s truth could prevail, where eternal verities would stand. It had to be a man made world. And I think the men in the White House and the state department and in Congress hate God and they are going to have a world in contempt of God.

[Scott] Well, that is a very powerful statement. I am inclined to look at them a bit differently. I don’t think they have that kind of pagan courage, really. I think these are men who have totally forgotten God. If you were to bring God up as a subject or as a reference they would automatically decide that you weren’t worth talking to because you would be a fool. These are men who quite literally do not believe there is a God. They believe that there is only man power and power on earth, that life is limited and you better make the best of it. And they do believe, I think, a great many of them, like Kissinger. Kissesntger was absolutely candid in saying that he felt we were the losing said and that the best we could do would be to play for time and to accommodate as much possible to give the Soviets so much equity in our civilization that they would allow it to continue. That was his famous theory of linkage. He wanted to give them so much that they would be linked to us.

Now in a pagan who defies God, who defies the whole idea of God as one thing, these are men whoa are cowards who are trying to placate the Soviets in the same way that the man you mentioned bought gold as a hedge.

[Rushdoony] Well, I can buy your thesis. In fact, I have a book on the subject written by a professor. And the whole point of it, of course, is that because there is no God, we cannot operate in terms of world truth. And so through trade we are going to create the links that will make us necessary to the Soviets.

[Scott] That is the official reasoning.

[Rushdoony] Yes. That is the official reasoning. But at the same time the militancy of the hostility to Christianity and the Soviet Union under Gorbachev, the persecution of Christianity has been intensified. More churches are being bulldozed than ever before under the Communists.

[Scott] Well, this is...

[Rushdoony] And we are seeing in this country a growing persecution of Christians.

[Scott] Well, that is true. We have polytheism here in the same the Romans had in which all gods are equally tolerated and equally ignored. But the hatred of Christianity here is reflected, I suppose, obliquely, as we said, between sessions here on the fact that the media has suddenly forgotten Solzenitzen whose great crime is being a Christian. I mean, the shock of discovering that he was a Christian when he arrived here was just something they will never get over. And they are never going to talk to him about any of these events and yet he was one of the most heroic features of modern times, figures of modern times.

No. If there is nothing left but worldly power, if there is no transcendtal value, if God does not tip the scale, then, of course, the hardware that you recited before will determine the outcome of everything else, because men who will not risk their skin are not going to to go up against a larger military force. Although men who are brave and men who have a faith have many times overcome larger forces. Alexander of Macedon overcame the Persian Empire when it was enormously larger and had a great many more men, elephants and everything else.

[Rushdoony] Well, the world assault against Christianity I think cannot be separated from what is happening in the political sphere. Before we started discussing this subject I was talking about an article which I think is timely in this context. The home school court report, Spring 1990, an article conservatives declare war on religious freedom. It is written by Michael P. Faris. And it is about the court decision in employment division Oregon department of human resources versus Smith. It has done, as Faris says, to religious freedom what Roe versus Wade did to human life. And the whole point of it is that now the state can prosecute anyone who differs from government policy.

Those who might believe, Faris said, that Smith number two would only be applied to drugs smoking Indians were proven to be in error when only a week later the Supreme Court vacated an excellent decision of the Minnesota Supreme Court involving the right of the Amish to maintain their religiously motivated lifestyle. And this decision ...

[Scott] The second decision of...

[Rushdoony] No, the first one.

[Scott] Do... I don't think the readers are... are clear on what the decision involved.

[Rushdoony] Oh. The decision involved the fact that two state employed drug counselors were fired by the state of Oregon for illegally using the drug peyote as part of a North America Indian religious ritual. The counselors challenged the constitutionality of their firing in an unemployment compensation application appellate procedure. The case went up to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court ruled against the state and the decision was written by Scalia supposedly the most conservative Supreme Court justice, joined by Rehnquist, Kennedy, White and Stevens.

[Scott] It was written against the people who appealed, wasn’t it?

[Rushdoony] Against the state for...

[Scott] Against the state?

[Rushdoony] In favor of those who appealed. Excuse me. I got that backwards. It denied them the right to use peyote.

[Scott] That is it. Yes.

[Rushdoony] That will make it clearer.

[Scott] Yes.

[Rushdoony] It denied them the right to use peyote in the process...

[Scott] In a religious ceremony.

[Rushdoony] Yes. But in the process it broadened the application of the case to say wherever the state saw fit to rule in terms of a public policy then state had the right to do so.

[Scott] Well, in that case, for instance, there maybe... I am not sure, but I believe there are still local option laws in some states which forbid liquor. I think we still have some counties. I know I lived for a while in one in Kentucky. In that case the use of wine for communion would have been a violation of the law under that sort of a ruling.

[Rushdoony] Yes. This is interesting, because it gives credit to a truly great man. Faris writes, “The principle voice of alarm has been William Bentley Ball, the dean of religious freedom litigators. Bill Ball has unsuccessfully tried to convince conservative Christians that Rehnquist, Scalia, Bork and company are bad news for religious freedom. I have also tried to sound the alarm to home school audiences. Rehnquist was the only dissenting justice in the seminal religious freedom case of Thomas versus Review Board. Now the anti religious freedom views of Rehnquist and Thomas has become the law of the land.

“In Washington Post column of April 22, 1990 conservative columnist George Will gave his hearty endorsement of the majority opinion in Smith II. In fact, he went further scolding the court for failing to forthrightly reverse Wisconsin versus Yoder. Will favors the coercion of the Amish children into public high schools. There is no room for a different drummer in Will’s lockstep march of majority rule,” unquote.

Well there is much more of this in the sense it is not by the way, though, from our discussion of Golitsyn’s thesis, because we are moving towards a merger of goals, a merger of concerns and Humanism is the prevailing faith.

[Scott] Well, a merger on the part of the ruling class of the United States...

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Scott] ...and the ruling class of Russia, of Germany. The ... the sort of thing that is happening like, for instance, the payment, the submission of the Germans to the Russians in return for unification. It is obvious that they are going to pay for Russian troops on their soil that they are going to do everything they can to assist the Russian technologically and militarily so that NATO... the heart of NATO has been removed right before our eyes. Any further discussion of NATO today is really beside the point.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Scott] It has been gutted. And that brings up the question of the Baltic states, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia. Solzenitzen, not Solzenitzen, but Gorgbachev. I watchd one of his press conferences Friday morning. I got up at seven o'clock not for that purpose, but I turned it on in a hotel and watched it and his questions, his answers were rambling and disjointed. He was literally babbling. And he talked around every question. He didn’t answer any questions. The question of Lithuania came up and he immediately got angry.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Scott] He immediately got very testy about it and said, “We are not going to discuss your internal problems and we don’t expect you to discuss ours.”

We couldn’t even discuss it. And that was an offense... an affront.

[Rushdoony] Yes. Well, the interesting thing is everything he had said in his trip here in the way of disinformation has been heavily featured. For example, today the front page story, Gorbachev’s vision, a nation of morals.

[Scott] A nation of morals?

[Rushdoony] President Mikhail Gorbachev sees the Soviet Union becoming, quote, a state where politics will be linked to morals, unquote.

[Scott] Well then we should repeat Mr. Seaman of Iowa’s question. When do the war crime trials begin?

[Rushdoony] Yes. Yes. Well, this is the kind of thing that this been featured, not any embarrassing questions that have been asked and that he has refused to answer.

He vowed his country won’t stray or sway from perestroika saying its economy will strengthen in accordance to the principles of a regulated free market economy. It will be a state open for the world and in many respects integrated into global civilized processes.

[Scott] Did you say regulated free? A regulated free economy?

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Scott] Well, that is what... that is what we have.

[Rushdoony] That is what... that is what Gorbachev said, the principles of a regulated free market economy.

[multiple voices]

[Rushdoony] He was quoted on the question of what do he and his wife do to relax. That is the type of thing that has been featured by the media.

[Scott] Well, she knits the Soviet flag and he jogs. No, I am sorry. It was our president who jogs.

[Rushdoony] He says they usually read and he likes to take a walk in fresh air from time to time.

[Scott] Well, it is better than stale air.

[Rushdoony] Well...

[Scott] It is a rather stale story that he is telling, though. And it is... our press is... is amazing. They seem to operate now like a bunch of lemmings and, of course, their excuse is a lemming excuse. Everybody else is doing it.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

Well, Gorbachev has flown back now and no one knows what the was promised.

[Scott] Not yet. Mr. Bush has got to pave the way before he tells anybody.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Scott] So that ... you mean... you know that it is no bargain. But then we are not going to drive any bargains anyway, because we are dealing from weakness. We are dealing from fear. Let’s be frank about it. The American people are afraid of the USSR and they have been ever since World War II. And now that the Soviets have exceeded us in military power and now that they have a global navy, they have control of the high seas, we are in the position where we are totally dependent upon overeas minerals in order to maintain ourselves industrially. They could blockade us at sea. They don’t have to... they don’t have to hit us with missiles. They don’t have to use an A-bomb. They can blockade us. They can sink our navy, because they out number us three to one. Our... their satellites in space are armed and ours are not. And they could starve us into submission. What we are seeing now adds up to a surrender in which we re putting the best possible face upon it. We are saying this is for peace and the man we are surrendering to is full of smiles and he is wearing thousand dollar suits that fit him very well, do a lot for him, because he is a kind of pudgy fellow. But this is a surrender. It isn’t a sell out. It is a surrender. And nobody seems to be able to say so.

[Rushdoony] Well, those who are saying so are not heard.

[Scott] Or not...

[Rushdoony] They are not quoted.

[Scott] ...or not being picked up.

[Rushdoony] No.

[Scott] No. There is a great mistake because this is not a cowardly country. This is a very tough country. This is a very rough country. I remember when it was very rough and it is worse now than it was before. The rise in crime is a reflection of the weakness of our government. It is not a reflection of the people being worse, because the people have always behaved this when there was nobody to stop them.

[Rushdoony] All over the world.

[Scott] All over the world. Every race, every color. It makes no difference. If there is no police, there is going to be unlimited crime and we have no courts.

[Rushdoony] That is right.

[Scott] We have no courts and we have police with their back to the walls who get low pay. I had a former policeman tell me that anyone who stays on the force for as long as three years sees such shocking things that his moral sense is absolutely shattered.

[Rushdoony] Well, nowadays the police are trying very hard to get into rural areas, small towns and so on because there is no future in the cities. It leads to bitterness, cynicism and serious personal problems.

[Scott] Well, what can you say when the court tells a policeman that his testimony is no better than that of a long time criminal? What can y o say when the government is confiscating property before it puts people on trial? What kind of courts are these? This ... the decision you just cited is merely one of an avalanche.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Scott] I listened to a state senator last Saturday who was running for the U S House of Representatives in a rather information barbecue set up, young man, 40. Somebody brought up the constitution. Well, he said, “I... I am a lawyer.” He said, “We talked about the constitution in law school about one week. All the rest of it,” he said, “was based on court decisions. And,” he said, “The constitution has been shredded. There is no... for practical purposes we have no constitution. Let’s get on to something more immediate.”

[Rushdoony] Unfortunately he was right.

[Scott] Now he... he also in passing made one very good comment. Someone brought up the environmental movmeetn and he said their purpose is to bring us back to a pre industrial society, which I thought was rather well put.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Scott] But what I started to say was that this country... these people, the American people are not going to live with a surrender if they realize that a surrender is under way.

Right now I read recently that there is a poll taken on the question of 10 year limitations of terms of Congress. Seventy percent of the American people want to limit those terms and 70 percent of Congress does not. Now in the long run the people will prevail. Weak leaders are always pushed out of the way when a crisis comes. And I think the crisis will come. I think there will be a change of leadership. I couldn’t say who will replace we have, but I am convinced that the strongest people in the country is the Christian community.

[Rushdoony] Yes. And the men in the Kremlin, as well as the men in the White House act as though God were dead. And that is the biggest mistake that he made.

[Scott] Exactly. That is their real attitude. There is no God.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Scott] They don’t even argue the point. They take it for granted.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

[Scott] And what has happened to everyone who has ever said that?

[Rushdoony] Yes. I recall a good many years back, oh, early 60s when we were in Palo Alto there was something written in one of the men’s rooms at the library, “God is dead, signed Nietzsche.” Then underneath it, “Nietzsche is dead, signed God.”

And I think that will be written under Gorbachev’s name and Bush’s and a good many others.

[Scott] Well, these are... it is almost like watching summer... summer fire flies glittering, going on and off, neon tails and all.

[Rushdoony] I like that about the neon tails.

[Scott] They are not for this world.

[Rushdoony] No.

[Scott] Because it is true, as you said before, as you started to say that they do have internal problems. They have eaten up the substance and destroyed the Spirit of the Russian people and all the subject nations. And 40 percent, I understand of all Russia is without sewage, without lights, without running water. This is a ... this is a... an economy... a fourth world economy with a super power military. But armies reflect the people. Armies are part of the people. Armies are not separate from the people. They may try to shift these troops back and forth to kill various types of citizens to whom they are not personally or by blood related, but that is a very treacherous game. It doesn’t really work too long.

[Rushdoony] And one refugee from the Soviet Union has said the suicide rate among the draftees is very high.

[Scott] Well, they are... they are mistreated, you know.

[Rushdoony] Yes.

Well, our time is about up. Thank you all for listening and God bless you.

[Voice] Authorized by the Chalcedon Foundation. Archived by the Mount Olive Tape Library. Digitized by ChristRules.com.